Would you give up meat

Boo1979 said:

How do you think being unhealthy enough to be here ( ie diabetic) relates to eating / not eating meat?
As far as I see it, people can be a healthy diabetic as a meat eater or as a non meat eater, they can also be a very unhealthy diabetic as a meat eater or a very unhealthy diabetic as a non meat eater. - meat is not the determining factor and is just is one way of getting nutrition, as are many other food choices.

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I was referring to the proselytisers for vegetarianism and veganism who make claims that their favoured way of eating means it is impossible to get T2 when not eating meat.. the Gregers, Barnards and Khans of this world who claim that eating animal saturated fat "gives" you T2 diabetes by filing up your fat cells with saturated fat. I'm pretty sure that this is rubbish and as the levels of T2 in mostly vegetarian India show it's also false.
A number of other contributors managed to get that nuance from what I wrote... maybe I needed to spell it out more clearly.. apologies if I failed to do so.

All else aside, I wouldn’t think it’s much of a stretch to form the opinion that an all-carnivorous diet is extremely unlikely to ever result in a case of type 2 diabetes. That’s not to say that I think that one extreme is better than the other, but I would think that, on the whole, a vegetarian/vegan is more likely to be causing larger insulin responses more of the time. I have no horse in the carnivore/veg/vegan race. In fact I’m only a moderate meat eater myself, but I do see where bulkbiker is coming from here.

As ever, we are all free to make our own choices

bulkbiker said:

I was referring to the proselytisers for vegetarianism and veganism who make claims that their favoured way of eating means it is impossible to get T2 when not eating meat.. the Gregers, Barnards and Khans of this world who claim that eating animal saturated fat "gives" you T2 diabetes by filing up your fat cells with saturated fat. I'm pretty sure that this is rubbish and as the levels of T2 in mostly vegetarian India show it's also false.
A number of other contributors managed to get that nuance from what I wrote... maybe I needed to spell it out more clearly.. apologies if I failed to do so.

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I don't disagree with this post but as a matter of interest India is not mostly vegetarian, although it does have the highest percentage of vegetarians I believe.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-43581122

bulkbiker said:

And there are thousands of vegetarians that do have T2 look at India for example....
There haven't been that many long term carnivores yet but I wonder how many of them will develop T2?
I would hesitate a guess at zero.
Remember that most meat eaters currently also eat carbs so you aren't comparing like with like.
There are lots of vegetarians and vegans who have been following that way of eating for years and still develop T2 so......

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Not type2 as we know it..
But developing Alziemers...? My mum has it. (For at least the last 5 or 6 years.) & was a vegitarian/vegan for over 35 years? During my reading up on the subject of Altziemers, I discovered something interesting.. There were a few topics crop up on DCUK too.
Now she did jack in the sugar & sweets in "sympathy" with me back in 1976. But she loved her bread, pasta & spuds..
According to the NHS on diagnosis at the "memory clinic" her "lifestyle" didn't put her in a risk zone regarding developing the condition, still also being physically active & a non smoker/drinker.

Oddly, the first thing I noticed something was up (as well as her cognitive function.) was she was back on the bacon & fish...
My now 88 year old mother's condition hasn't progressed since a balanced diet was adopted. Though I try to keep the carb count down when I cook. Lol

Any how.. Take a look?

Mr_Pot said:

I don't disagree with this post but as a matter of interest India is not mostly vegetarian, although it does have the highest percentage of vegetarians I believe.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-43581122

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I have seen figures of up to 40% vegetarian in India and its never quite clear if that includes vegans too... but mea culpa it may well not be that India is "mostly vegetarian". Appreciate the correction.

Jaylee said:

Not type2 as we know it..
But developing Alziemers...? My mum has it. (For at least the last 5 or 6 years.) & was a vegitarian/vegan for over 35 years? During my reading up on the subject of Altziemers, I discovered something interesting.. There were a few topics crop up on DCUK too.
Now she did jack in the sugar & sweets in "sympathy" with me back in 1976. But she loved her bread, pasta & spuds..
According to the NHS on diagnosis at the "memory clinic" her "lifestyle" didn't put her in a risk zone regarding developing the condition, still also being physically active & a non smoker/drinker.

Oddly, the first thing I noticed something was up (as well as her cognitive function.) was she was back on the bacon & fish...
My now 88 year old mother's condition hasn't progressed since a balanced diet was adopted. Though I try to keep the carb count down when I cook. Lol

Any how.. Take a look?

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Not a complete surprise to me.. but glad it hasn't progressed in your mum.
My mother's (currently 92) mental capacity has increased greatly since we removed her statin medication. She was diagnosed with early onset dementia about 8 or 9 years ago. I would love to find out if that was when she also started on the statins...

Pinkorchid said:

The more I see in the media the more I realise just what a small group of people among the population there are who actually do low carb high fat and certainly few diabetics except here. Even when occasionally we see something that says lowering the starchy carbs is good still low fat is promoted as the healthy way to eat not just here but in other countries around the world so even when we see sometimes that fat is not bad anymore it hasn't really taken off Vegetarian and vegan is becoming far more popular now as so many people have decided they do not want to eat animal products. I must admit I do not eat much meat or dairy these days simply because I have lost the taste for it and so I do buy quite a lot of meat free stuff like Quorn these days and enjoy it better
Just wondered how others here feel about it and would you ever give up meat​

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No. Reduced carbs, filled up on meat.

bulkbiker said:

I'd starve and be unhealthy so why?

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Me too.

bulkbiker said:

I was referring to the proselytisers for vegetarianism and veganism who make claims that their favoured way of eating means it is impossible to get T2 when not eating meat.. the Gregers, Barnards and Khans of this world who claim that eating animal saturated fat "gives" you T2 diabetes by filing up your fat cells with saturated fat. I'm pretty sure that this is rubbish and as the levels of T2 in mostly vegetarian India show it's also false.
A number of other contributors managed to get that nuance from what I wrote... maybe I needed to spell it out more clearly.. apologies if I failed to do so.

Click to expand...

To be equally clear, I do find it strange, and if Im honest, a little sad that you appear to need to make snidey comments to various people people who happen to disagree with you - its a very unappealing habit

As has been said, intolerance/allergy aside, it is simply a matter of choice. Here is where it gets mucky. I prefer to make informed choices and it is the quagmire of bias/misinformation/dogma that can influence one's choices.

These influences can be quite veiled at times and some are downright, deliberately hidden.
How many of us (in the general population, not specifically those with T2) are or were aware of the history of the guidelines wrt Big Food, Big Agribusiness and to Big Pharma, research funding, placements on committees that sway government policies, subsidies, taxes etc? But the one that gets my goat every single time is Big Church.

Kelloggs plus Seventh Day Adventists should not be able to influence what I eat for breakfast for a number of reasons. Continued use of dodgy science promoting scare tactics and over time influencing public understanding of nutrition. Religion, or the initial use of religious beliefs to influence the choices we make citing cherry picked parts of a book based (and heavily edited as well as mistranslated by error or by design to suit) on an oral history 'passed down' by your favourite big, blue spaghetti monster in the sky while at the same time making you a Squillionaire.

Jim Lahey said:

All else aside, I wouldn’t think it’s much of a stretch to form the opinion that an all-carnivorous diet is extremely unlikely to ever result in a case of type 2 diabetes. That’s not to say that I think that one extreme is better than the other, but I would think that, on the whole, a vegetarian/vegan is more likely to be causing larger insulin responses more of the time. I have no horse in the carnivore/veg/vegan race. In fact I’m only a moderate meat eater myself, but I do see where bulkbiker is coming from here.

As ever, we are all free to make our own choices

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if the vegetarian is on a keto diet based on cheese, eggs etc (no meat) then I cant see how there would be a difference in their result to someone on a meat based keto diet.

lucylocket61 said:

if the vegetarian is on a keto diet based on cheese, eggs etc (no meat) then I cant see how there would be a difference in their result to someone on a meat based keto diet.

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Yeah, sure thing. No argument from me there. I guess I was thinking more in the context of vegans at the far end of the two extremes

lucylocket61 said:

if the vegetarian is on a keto diet based on cheese, eggs etc (no meat) then I cant see how there would be a difference in their result to someone on a meat based keto diet.

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Far harder to achieve satiety so they'd need to eat more and without a carb free meat dish included the carbs are more likely to add up. I'm not saying it's impossible but far less easy to do.

Boo1979 said:

To be equally clear, I do find it strange, and if Im honest, a little sad that you appear to need to make snidey comments to various people people who happen to disagree with you - its a very unappealing habit

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Sorry I make you feel sad but interesting that you read "snidey" into my tone...I was trying to make myself clearer.
I'm fairly sure you would find many of my habits unappealing but I will consider myself well and truly scolded...thanks.

Its a good job cheese and eggs satisfy me. But then, i dont like meat much anyway. And lots of green veg.

Not eaten meat for 30 years. Love cheese.

lucylocket61 said:

if the vegetarian is on a keto diet based on cheese, eggs etc (no meat) then I cant see how there would be a difference in their result to someone on a meat based keto diet.

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Vegetarian, ok. Vegan = NO eggs, NO dairy so keto becomes problematic. I have had my highest bgl spikes from vegan recipes from Greger et al, and I am talking up in the 20's whereas on my normal omnivore diet I generally do not get as high as 8. And - I am not doing keto. I made a vegan strudel for my daughter the other day because she is believing the vegan propoganda and is trying to get me to convert. So I showed her my meter(s) that were both above 18 mmol.l and remained above 10 the next morning where my fasting bgl is around 5,6 normally. She had bacon this morning, so I think she likes my version of propoganda

Diakat said:

Not eaten meat for 30 years. Love cheese.

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Cattle are efficient in turning grass (cereal) into a lot of products.

Great meat from the right breed.
Milk into a shipload of dairy products.
Hides into leather shoes, furniture and car seat covers.
Blood and bone into one of the best fertilisers going to get the grass growing.

Rinse and repeat...

I gave up meat for 30 years but developed some intolerances in the last year or so (tofu & certain veg) so added it back. I'll eat whatever keeps me well.

Safi said:

I'll eat whatever keeps me well.

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And that is exactly my attitude*.
With a second lesser guideline that I will avoid foods that I am convinced will harm my health.


*Except for locusts. I draw the line at insects, no matter how nutritious.