Low Carbs versus NHS recommended diet.

azure

Expert
Messages
9,780
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
I have a guitar buddy who is T1D and on an insulin pump. He has had a terrible time trying to control his bgl going by NHS advice, amd we have even had him hypo halfway through a song. We have had to pull out of gigs because his bgl was either too high or too low.
Back to Topic. I recently introduced him to LCHF and gave him a copy of my 'rulebook' which he has used. He was reporting needing much less insulin, and was getting stable results at last. However a couple of weeks ago he had his annual checkup wih his consultant who immediately ordered him to stop his nonsense and start eating carbs again. He was recommended to eat a minimum of 250 g of carbs a day, and at least 2000 calories a day. He was told to stop carb counting and go back to bolus by calorie value, else face being dropped by the Consultant and his team.

Since then we have missed 3 rehearsals, and our next gig is this Thursday. He is in a terrible state, but is fearful of having his care being withdrawn, I have pointed out that his Consultant does not need to know how he eats etc, so don't tell him. Do what he now knows works for him. But the seeds of unease have been planted in his mind, and I dread this next gig.

I suggest he gets Think Like A Pancreas and Pumping Insulin. They're both fantastic books for a Type 1 pumper :)

I'm surprised he was told to,eat a set amount of carbs. Also, I'm very confused that you say he was told to stop carb counting. Do you mean in the general,way that people refer to carb counting here (ie watching how many they eat per day)? Because carb counting in relation to Type 1 means assessing carbs and adjusting bolus insulin. One of the things you have to do before going on a pump is show that you can do that.

As for the NHS diet, I've never had a problem with it or dieticians. I've always been told to adjust it according to my needs and have never been told I have to eat a certain amount of carbs, protein or fat. Type 1s usually have more leeway than many Type 2s due to insulin and the lack of insulin resistance (usually).
 

AndBreathe

Master
Retired Moderator
Messages
11,320
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
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Diet only
For obvious reasons, I'm not going to comment on anything diabetes, but @Oldvatr , your friend is literally getting mixed messages there. How can he know he's achieving 250gr carb a day if he's not counting anything?

If he is to eat 250gr carb a day, doesn't that pretty mimic fixed dosing and make his pump an outrageously expensive insulin delivery gizmo?

Has something important got lost in the telling here?

Bewildered of Planet Breathe.
 

ickihun

Master
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13,698
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I have a guitar buddy who is T1D and on an insulin pump. He has had a terrible time trying to control his bgl going by NHS advice, amd we have even had him hypo halfway through a song. We have had to pull out of gigs because his bgl was either too high or too low.
Back to Topic. I recently introduced him to LCHF and gave him a copy of my 'rulebook' which he has used. He was reporting needing much less insulin, and was getting stable results at last. However a couple of weeks ago he had his annual checkup wih his consultant who immediately ordered him to stop his nonsense and start eating carbs again. He was recommended to eat a minimum of 250 g of carbs a day, and at least 2000 calories a day. He was told to stop carb counting and go back to bolus by calorie value, else face being dropped by the Consultant and his team.

Since then we have missed 3 rehearsals, and our next gig is this Thursday. He is in a terrible state, but is fearful of having his care being withdrawn, I have pointed out that his Consultant does not need to know how he eats etc, so don't tell him. Do what he now knows works for him. But the seeds of unease have been planted in his mind, and I dread this next gig.
That's what's happened to me and I've been sent to see a psychologist because I'm allowing diabetes to make me depressed. No nhs diet is getting me depressed!
 

kittypoker

Well-Known Member
Messages
285
Type of diabetes
Friend
Treatment type
I do not have diabetes
The British Nutrition Foundation is the main organisation that the Government uses for nutrition advice. Have a look at the list of Corporate Members and then wonder no longer why the Eatwell Plate is what it is..

Corporate Members

ALDI www.aldi.co.uk/

ASDA Stores Ltd www.asda.com

British Sugar plc www.britishsugar.co.uk www.sugar-bureau.co.uk

Calbee UK Ltd www.yushoi.co.uk

Cargill Inc (Truvia) www.truvia.co.uk

Costa Coffee www.costa.co.uk

Dine Contract Catering Limited www.dine-contract-catering.com

Ella's Kitchen www.ellaskitchen.co.uk

Farrington Oils Ltd www.farrington-oils.co.uk

General Mills www.generalmills.com

Greggs plc www.greggs.co.uk

HJ Heinz Ltd www.heinz.co.uk

Ingredion UK Ltd www.ingredion.com/

Kerry Foods Ltd www.kerrygroup.com

KP Snacks Limited www.kpsnacks.com

Marks and Spencer plc www.marksandspencer.com

Mars UK Ltd www.mars.com

McCain Foods (GB) Ltd www.mccain.co.uk

McDonald's Restaurants Ltd www.mcdonalds.co.uk

nabim www.nabim.org.uk

National Farmers' Union www.nfuonline.com/home

Nestlé Nutrition www.smahcp.co.uk

Nomad Foods Europe www.iglo.com

Ocean Spray www.oceanspray.com

Quorn www.quorn.com

Slimming World www.slimmingworld.co.uk

Solazyme Inc www.algavia.com

Tata Global Beverages Ltd www.tataglobalbeverages.com

The Co-operative Group Ltd www.co-operative.coop

United Biscuits (UK) Limited www.unitedbiscuits.co.uk

Volac www.volac.com

Waitrose Ltd www.waitrose.com

Warburtons www.warburtons.co.uk

Weetabix www.weetabix.co.uk

Wm Morrisons Supermarkets plc www.morrisons.co.uk



Sustaining Members

Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board www.ahdb.org.uk

Associated British Foods www.abf.co.uk

Coca-Cola Great Britain and Ireland www.coke.com

Danone Waters and Dairies UK Ltd www.danone.co.uk www.h4hinitiative.com

DuPont Nutrition and Health Division www.danisco.co.uk

J Sainsbury plc www.sainsburys.co.uk

Kellogg Europe www.kelloggs.co.uk

Mondelez International www.mondelezinternational.com

Nestlé UK Ltd www.nestle.com

PepsiCo UK Ltd www.pepsico.com www.walkers.co.uk www.quakeroats.co.uk www.tropicana.co.uk

Tate & Lyle www.tateandlyle.co.uk

Tesco www.tesco.com

Unilever plc www.unilever.com www.flora.com www.floraproactiv.co.uk/proactiv

Sustaining members agree to provide a donation to BNF for at least three years to support our wider charitable work focussing on consumer education, and engagement with the media, government, schools and health professionals.

That's scarey. Actually, it's terrifying because I have no idea what we can do about it except making it public so people are more aware. Well done for that.
 

douglas99

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,572
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
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That's scarey. Actually, it's terrifying because I have no idea what we can do about it except making it public so people are more aware. Well done for that.

Suggest an alternative working system?
Provide alternative funding?
 

NoCrbs4Me

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,700
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Other
Dislikes
Vegetables
Up to last week I followed the NHS Doctor who confirmed my T2 back in March and have lost 40kg.

On joining this forum I've just started BG monitoring and have noticed a few spikes on this method which I'm now reducing by lowering my carbs over the whole day and individually meals.

My point is all diets work differently for every single person, but I focused on ensuring I was always in deficit from calories in to calories out. Find a life style that allows you to maintain a weight and a diet to reduce your weight by over 15%, may be more or less depending on your starting weight/BMI

We all need to work out our personal fat threshold point to reverse this T2 and remain long term below this weight by life style changes. I really recommend that you read Professor Roy Taylor - Newcastle University research as seems to be the UK expert in this field.

These are only my experiences to date with some success , but I'm very new to T2 and I'm sure I'm making a few mistakes

The official NHS macros are:

Energy: 8,400 kJ/2,000kcal
Total fat: 70g
Saturates: 20g
Carbohydrate: 260g
Total sugars: 90g
Protein: 50g

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Goodfood/Pages/reference-intakes-RI-guideline-daily-amounts-GDA.aspx

So I would say that you're not following the NHS dietary guidelines, which is no doubt why you're doing so well. Good work!

The NHS' math doesn't seem to add up. Assuming 4 kcal per gram for protein and carb and 9 kcal per g of fat, I get only 1,870 kcal, not 2,000 kcal. That's assuming that the sugar is part of the carbs. If the sugar is in addition to the carbs, I get 2,230 kcal. I wonder how many people reading that would think the sugar is in addition to the carbs?

4 L of water a day seems excessive, though.
 

dbr10

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,237
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Having only recently diagnosed with T2 I've been doing a low carb diet. Currently about 80 g per day. It seems to be working well and BG seems to be falling.

However, when I look at what the NHS recommends a T2 should eat, it seems almost opposite of what I'm currently eating for my low carbs diet.

So is there anyone on this forum that follows the NHS recommended diet and still controls their blood sugar?

It's not easy to totally go against my Doctor's advice on what I should eat.
I would have said it is almost impossible to control BG bh following the diet advice.
 

dbr10

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,237
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
I very much doubt it... in my humble opinion that would be impossible and why so many of us get quite angry at NHS advice.
After my diagnosis (by practise nurse rather than GP) I went to see the GP in charge of diabetes care for the surgery. His ignorance about recent research into ways to treat Type 2 was, to me, completely amazing. Also he apparently had absolutely no interest in educating himself and was not even curious as to how I had brought my blood glucose down. After those 5 minutes I had no worries about completely ignoring his advice and following the way of eating I had been introduced to on this forum. I believe it has saved my eyes and feet. I worked out that diabetes was mine to control and not the doctors.. I would rather take advice from a well controlled Type 2 than someone with "qualifications" obtained 30 yeas ago.
All the best
Mark
Yes. Absolutely right.
 

dbr10

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,237
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
After diagnosis I did start with what I was told, low fat and high carb, I was given a meter and told to test. When I went back and said it wasn't working I was told to go low GI, That didn't work for me either. I then went back with my spreadsheet showing that when I had lower carbs for a day my readings were a lot lower. The reply from my GP was "Oh good I'm pleased you found that out" which I took to mean I could could continue.
Perhaps it meant you had told him something he didn't know, and he was covering hus embarrassment.
 

dbr10

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,237
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Thanks for all the replies.

I've no plans to abandon my low carbs diet. I just find it hard to understand why the official NHS dietary guidelines appear almost exactly the opposite of what seems to work for most people on this forum.
Good for you. I think we have to put it down to stupidly, since the advice flies in the face of the facts.
 
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robert72

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,878
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
I have a guitar buddy who is T1D and on an insulin pump. He has had a terrible time trying to control his bgl going by NHS advice, amd we have even had him hypo halfway through a song. We have had to pull out of gigs because his bgl was either too high or too low.
Back to Topic. I recently introduced him to LCHF and gave him a copy of my 'rulebook' which he has used. He was reporting needing much less insulin, and was getting stable results at last. However a couple of weeks ago he had his annual checkup wih his consultant who immediately ordered him to stop his nonsense and start eating carbs again. He was recommended to eat a minimum of 250 g of carbs a day, and at least 2000 calories a day. He was told to stop carb counting and go back to bolus by calorie value, else face being dropped by the Consultant and his team.

Since then we have missed 3 rehearsals, and our next gig is this Thursday. He is in a terrible state, but is fearful of having his care being withdrawn, I have pointed out that his Consultant does not need to know how he eats etc, so don't tell him. Do what he now knows works for him. But the seeds of unease have been planted in his mind, and I dread this next gig.
As a low-carbing T1, I have never told my consultant how I get such amazing results and he has never asked. I am pretty sure I would get the same reaction if he knew :eek:
 

donnellysdogs

Master
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As a low-carbing T1, I have never told my consultant how I get such amazing results and he has never asked. I am pretty sure I would get the same reaction if he knew :eek:

Yes, but this is part of the problem... consultants never ask how good people get good results... they are too wrapped up in giving more uncontrolled people more bad advice...
 

NoCrbs4Me

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,700
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
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Other
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Vegetables
Yes, but this is part of the problem... consultants never ask how good people get good results... they are too wrapped up in giving more uncontrolled people more bad advice...
I think it's assumed that the good results are from following the standard advice. And if a patient isn't getting good blood glucose control they assume the patient is not following the directions they've been given.
 

Resurgam

Expert
Messages
9,849
Type of diabetes
Type 2 (in remission!)
Treatment type
Diet only
until I found low carbing I was accused of all sorts by medical professionals who gave me diet sheets and then blamed me for putting on weight on high carb regimes. I have been shouted at called a liar, lazy, greedy - and for a long time I thought it was my fault I was fat. Then I found that I could lose weight on a low carb diet and was instantly berated and told that my thinking was wrong and the diet was dangerous. A few years later I found Dr Atkins New Diet Revolution, and found that he was treated in just the same way, but that he had got lots of patients who were alive when standard medical treatments would most likely have killed them. The medical establishment really needs a good shake up.
 

donnellysdogs

Master
Messages
13,233
Type of diabetes
Type 1
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Pump
Dislikes
People that can't listen to other people's opinions.
People that can't say sorry.
until I found low carbing I was accused of all sorts by medical professionals who gave me diet sheets and then blamed me for putting on weight on high carb regimes. I have been shouted at called a liar, lazy, greedy - and for a long time I thought it was my fault I was fat. Then I found that I could lose weight on a low carb diet and was instantly berated and told that my thinking was wrong and the diet was dangerous. A few years later I found Dr Atkins New Diet Revolution, and found that he was treated in just the same way, but that he had got lots of patients who were alive when standard medical treatments would most likely have killed them. The medical establishment really needs a good shake up.


Sorry, this did get me chuckling!!
 
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CherryAA

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,171
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I have a guitar buddy who is T1D and on an insulin pump. He has had a terrible time trying to control his bgl going by NHS advice, amd we have even had him hypo halfway through a song. We have had to pull out of gigs because his bgl was either too high or too low.
Back to Topic. I recently introduced him to LCHF and gave him a copy of my 'rulebook' which he has used. He was reporting needing much less insulin, and was getting stable results at last. However a couple of weeks ago he had his annual checkup wih his consultant who immediately ordered him to stop his nonsense and start eating carbs again. He was recommended to eat a minimum of 250 g of carbs a day, and at least 2000 calories a day. He was told to stop carb counting and go back to bolus by calorie value, else face being dropped by the Consultant and his team.

Since then we have missed 3 rehearsals, and our next gig is this Thursday. He is in a terrible state, but is fearful of having his care being withdrawn, I have pointed out that his Consultant does not need to know how he eats etc, so don't tell him. Do what he now knows works for him. But the seeds of unease have been planted in his mind, and I dread this next gig.

Maybe you could suggest he joins this site where a lot of T1 people can give him first hand feedback and provide him with a plce to ask questions directly?
 
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Oldvatr

Expert
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8,470
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Tablets (oral)
Maybe you could suggest he joins this site where a lot of T1 people can give him first hand feedback and provide him with a plce to ask questions directly?
He refuses to become computer savvy so google means funny eyes to him. He has been impressed with my success, and indeed was having his own success until he got slapped down. Unfortunately he is old school and totally believes what the doctors tell him, and so he is reliant on their care. Their threat to withdraw that support has major ramifications to his wellbeing, even if it is poor advice. He cannot do his own independent research, so is stuffed (with carbs). Will persevere with it, but I suspect it is a brick wall (much like I get when I have to extricate him from yet another hypo)

He was taught calorie counting method of diet before he went MDI so that has stuck and he is too set in his ways to change. I think this is why the Consulltant told him to go back to it.

I was having some success showing him how to LC, and he was beginning to cut out the junk food, but one advantage junk food has over real food is that the packet tells him how many calories it has, and that makes things simples. Also its a microwave jobbie and he gets v. impatient and irascible. Plus in his local supermarket the junk food is cheaper than the real food,