Stop Keto Now - The Mice Have Spoken!

[Tannith]

A lot of this comes from the early days of Atkins Diet, which was one of the most popular keto diets, and trailblazer for LCHF et al. Their diet plan has been revamped recently so that it is closer to LCHF in its basic structure, but it uses prepared and expensive shakes and snack bars whereas LCHF tends to be more do it yerself,

Some here use fibre supplements to provide for their gut flora such as flaxseeed or chia seed, but as @Brunneria says, LCHF does seem to promote plenty of veg, mainly using above ground veg rather than root veg so that the carb levels remain low for keto. The secret of keto is that we each have a trigger level of carb intake that stops keto from happening, typically somewhere around 50g a day, so it is possible to overeat on veg, so portion size needs to be considered if keto is your goal.

Thank you Oldvatr and Brunneria

 

[Alexandra100]

When I switched to keto, I kept my protein portions the same, subtracted the carbs and replaced them with veg.

@Brunneria I don't understand this. Vegetables all contain carbs. I find I have to ration them severely in order to keep my carb intake and my bg down. Perhaps it is possible to eat keto while still eating enough carbs to raise some people's bg? Could you give an example of your vegetable intake over eg a day?

 

[Guzzler]

Anyone got a source for polyphenols being of benefit in vivo? Closest I can find is benefit in vitro.

 

[zand]

The easiest way to understand keto and how it works for you is the same as the easiest way to understand Bgs. To understand BGs you get a BG meter and to understand keto you get a ketometer. That way you know you are in ketosis and you can find the right level of carbs to suit you.

 

[Brunneria]

@Brunneria I don't understand this. Vegetables all contain carbs. I find I have to ration them severely in order to keep my carb intake and my bg down. Perhaps it is possible to eat keto while still eating enough carbs to raise some people's bg? Could you give an example of your vegetable intake over eg a day?

My current veg intake is nil - because I have been ZC/carnivore since a bad tummy bug before Xmas made veg fibre a no no for me.

However, when I was eating 'keto', I ate plenty of veg. Sugar snap peas, green beans, aubergine, courgettes, cauliflour, broccoli, salads, mushrooms, coleslaw, tomatoes (within reason), cabbages, spinach, kale, celeriac... lovely, lovely veg in bounteous portions, often with butter or cheese or mayo or cream cheese over them.
Sugarsnap peas have approx 5g carbs/100g. I was cheerfully eating 150g for my evening meal, with a good 150g of sauteed mushrooms and maybe followed by 2-3 strawberries with cream. That is a lot of veg to see on a plate. Lovely. Negligible bg impact. The more fibre, the less bg impact.

I would have a big beefsteak tomato at lunch (the size of a cricket ball) with mozzarella and olive oil, or with peppered smoked mackerel. That would raise my blood glucose. But if I had it with coleslaw (fat and fibre) my levels hardly blipped.
A portion of leeks (in butter) was... um... a couple of the big leeks, you know the ones that run the length of the fridge shelf?
Oh, and braised red cabbage (spices, apple cider vinegar, onion and a cooking apple, with a HUGE red cabbage sliced like coleslaw, and a dab of butter...) a portion of that was probably... um... the size of both my clenched fists...?
Gosh, this is making me nostaligic. I love veg.

I have never gone for any kind of rigid carb counting, because for me and my body (which has variously had T2 bg levels and RH), all that veg had virtually nil impact on blood glucose, and nil effect in preventing me from being in ketosis. I think it was the fibre making the carb glucose release be so slow that my blood glucose doesn't show a rise. Or the rise was so slight that my own insulin levels iron it out. This is why I bang on about not all carbs being equal, and how fat and fibre slow the glucose release.

The carbs I need to count are the ones that release fast enough to affect my blood glucose, the simple sugars, the starchy veg, grains, chocolate, roasted chicory (coffee substitute), milk, yog, etc.etc. I am incredibly sensitive to all these quick release carbs because my 1st insulin response is totally shot (like many, many T2s), and my gluten/grain intolerance makes my bg v unstable if I have a whiff of grain 'on board'.

I've never bought into the idea that ketosis=50g or less, or even 20g or less.
We are too individual for that.
The idea is just illogical and misleading.
A ketogenic diet is when the food you eat keeps you in ketosis - and that number of g of carbs varies from person to person depending on a whole number of variables from their height, weight, age, muscle mass, insulin resistance, the person's individual reaction to the food (@Chook used to talk about spiking from mushrooms!) so food intolerances play a part, also the amount of fat and fibre eaten before or with the food, the type/source of the carbs, stress levels when eating/digesting, exercise, etc. etc.

Most of those things vary from day to day, so the food that keeps you in ketosis will vary day to day too - heck even during a single day.

As an example, try taking 10 g of quick release carbs, in say, a half slice of bread.
Eat it by itself.
The next day eat it with lashings of butter
The next day eat it before your evening meal
Then next, after your protein/fat evening meal
Then use it as breadcrumbs in a meatloaf
Then eat it with a non-fibrous veg
Then a really fibrous veg portion
Then eat it before exercise
and after...

The variations are endless, and I guarantee that you will get surprisingly different blood glucose readings from those various tests, over different lengths of time.

There is just so much more to it than a numbers game.
And once we know how to play it, we can eat really well AND stay in ketosis.

Edited repeatedly to add more veg descriptions til I realised that I was just torturing myself. haha!

 

[Tannith]

Is the not eating vegetables thing to do with low carbing or to do with keto? And do you have to eat loads of saturated fat to do keto? Is the purpose of keto to lose weight or to lower BG?

 

[lucylocket61]

the casein protein in dairy zaps the polyphenols in the veggies and fruit and stops them being as good for you.

ermm..................nope: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/does-milk-block-antioxidants#section4

and definitely not the polyphenols at all.

https://www.elsevier.com/about/pres...ivering-polyphenols-with-anti-cancer-activity

 

[lucylocket61]

Is the not eating vegetables thing to do with low carbing or to do with keto? And do you have to eat loads of saturated fat to do keto? Is the purpose of keto to lose weight or to lower BG?

are you asking @Brunneria why she has stopped eating veg for now? If not, I dont understand the question as you can low carb and eat lots of veg, as Brunneria has explained just now.

You do not have to eat lots of saturated fat, or lots of any other form of fats. But then, that depends on what you consider to be lots.

you can use keto to lose weight, maintain weight, gain weight- whatever you need it for.it all depends on how much you eat. Likewise with lowering BG.

I am going to page @bulkbiker to give you the short guide to what keto is, as he is my keto guru on here.

 

[zand]

Is the not eating vegetables thing to do with low carbing or to do with keto? And do you have to eat loads of saturated fat to do keto? Is the purpose of keto to lose weight or to lower BG?

From Wikipedia
Ketosis is a metabolic state in which some of the body's energy supply comes from ketone bodies in the blood, in contrast to a state of glycolysis in which blood glucose provides energy. Generally, ketosis occurs when the body is metabolizing fat at a high rate and converting fatty acids into ketones.

Keto is low carbing. Low carbing is not necessarily keto if you are not low enough carb to be in ketosis. I weigh my plateful of veggies and carb count them to make sure I don't go over my personal level.

No you don't have to eat a lot of saturated fat, but having extra fat helps to keep the hunger pangs at bay. My calorie intake varies from 800-1850 cals a day and I am still in ketosis at the higher level.

For me keto is solely to lose weight, my BGs are OK but not great (yet). When I was simply low carbing I lost weight at the beginning but it has stalled for years. I realise now that I was probably just popping in and out of ketosis and not staying there for long enough. Since getting my ketometer I have lost 12 pounds in 19 days.

 

[Alexandra100]

you can low carb and eat lots of veg

I wish! If I eat lots of low carb veg my carb count goes up, as does my bg.

 

[bulkbiker]

are you asking @Brunneria why she has stopped eating veg for now? If not, I dont understand the question as you can low carb and eat lots of veg, as Brunneria has explained just now.

You do not have to eat lots of saturated fat, or lots of any other form of fats. But then, that depends on what you consider to be lots.

you can use keto to lose weight, maintain weight, gain weight- whatever you need it for.it all depends on how much you eat. Likewise with lowering BG.

I am going to page @bulkbiker to give you the short guide to what keto is, as he is my keto guru on here.

I think Tannith has me on ignore..

 

[Birdwoman]

I think Tannith has me on ignore..

@bulkbiker
I would like to hear/see your take on it, so please post for us others to see!!

 

[zand]

I wish! If I eat lots of low carb veg my carb count goes up, as does my bg.

I suppose it depends on your definition of 'lots of low carb veg'.
Tonight I will be having 62g cauliflower, 71g runner beans, 51 g broccoli and 50g broad beans.
Last night my plate was more full because I had cabbage and curly kale instead of broad beans.
If I lose weight my FBG always tends to go up slightly no matter what I am eating to achieve the weight loss. I don't know why, but this has always happened.

 

[lucylocket61]

I think Tannith has me on ignore..

well, i would still like to hear your answer please.

 

[lucylocket61]

I wish! If I eat lots of low carb veg my carb count goes up, as does my bg.

what carb level do you have to have to keep you blood sugars stable?

 

[rab5]

"Many people are on carb restricted diets which limits our plant and fibre intakes, with bad effects on our gut health."

Nope! I have acually increased my veg intake. I am not full keto though, and I use fasting to do that. It works for me without being restrictive.

The mice studies I have seen on this use a high protein foodsource so are emulating the early Phase #1 Atkins diet that proved to be harmful in the long term. Atkins diet has been signifcantly revamped since to bring it in line with LCHF regime which seems to be a safer route. I personally know a work colleague who suffered health issues directly from his Atkins#1 diet and this set me anti keto, but I have researched LCHF and am satisfied it is ok for me to use to control my diabetes.

Have you a link for Atkins being harmful?

 

[Mr_Pot]

Tonight I will be having 62g cauliflower, 71g runner beans, 51 g broccoli and 50g broad beans.

That's very precise!

 

[zand]

That's very precise!

lol yeh, leftovers from yesterday, so it's easy to calculate. And it needs to be precise if I am going to have a higher carb veggie like broad beans.

 

[Alexandra100]

I suppose it depends on your definition of 'lots of low carb veg'.
Tonight I will be having 62g cauliflower, 71g runner beans, 51 g broccoli and 50g broad beans.
Last night my plate was more full because I had cabbage and curly kale instead of broad beans.
If I lose weight my FBG always tends to go up slightly no matter what I am eating to achieve the weight loss. I don't know why, but this has always happened.

I eat <50g low carb veg at breakfast, but none if my pre prandial bg is higher than I want. <100g low carb veg at lunch. <50g low carb vegetables for dinner, but none if I am higher than I want, as I seem to cope badly with carbs in the evening. So the maximum vegetable intake in a day is 200g and the minimum 100g. I envy you your abundance of vegetables.

Could the rise in fbg when you lose weight be due to the fluid loss that goes with fat loss?

 

[Alexandra100]

what carb level do you have to have to keep you blood sugars stable?

Please see my post above, but I wouldn't call my bg totally stable whatever I do. Certainly it is not as low as I would like.