Tax on red meat and bacon??

Oldvatr

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Do you think it's reasonable to distinguish between a) vegans who have made their choice for emotional reasons (e.g. 'meat is murder') so might be biased against evidence showing harms of veganism and b) vegans who made their choice based on their current scientific appraisal of the benefits of veganism?
Perfectly reasonable. I would query the statement "their current scientific appraisal" since most people in that category seem to be getting a corrupted or biassed message in the name of science that is spoon fed to them by the media at the moment. There is a definite political stance being taken with almost religious zeal, and this is what I find disturbing.
 

Dark Horse

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fertilizer from the petrochemical industry, a finite source and one governments are trying to phase out due to its harm to the environment and water.
I was aware that scientists are working on replacements for artificial fertilisers but I wasn't aware that governments are trying to phase out their use - could you provide a link? Thanks.
 
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There will be no taxes on "Road Kill" or your neighbours cattle or sheep that wander on to your property...
 

Dark Horse

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Perfectly reasonable. I would query the statement "their current scientific appraisal" since most people in that category seem to be getting a corrupted or biassed message in the name of science that is spoon fed to them by the media at the moment. There is a definite political stance being taken with almost religious zeal, and this is what I find disturbing.
Yes, a lot of science reporting doesn't make it easy for a layperson to get a balanced picture and I take your point about religious zeal. I was, however, talking about scientists who are working in the field and have a much better understanding than any layperson or media guru. If they change their behaviour as a result of their understanding, it would then be wrong to accuse them of bias because they've changed their behaviour.
 

lucylocket61

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I was aware that scientists are working on replacements for artificial fertilisers but I wasn't aware that governments are trying to phase out their use - could you provide a link? Thanks.
use of oil is what the governments are trying to phase out, in all its applications. Its deemed a fossil fuel. My point is that they have no alternative as far as i know, so they are swapping one problem - animals, for another - increased need for petrochemical fertilizers.
 

Guzzler

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How about you put the cattle and sheep back on the land, rotate the crops, allow fallowing and manage the soil instead of the shareholders? Just a thought.
 
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bulkbiker

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I'd like to hear that argument between a vegan and a blind person who manages to stay independant with his assistance dog or the woman with cerebral palsy who can choose whether to have more hours with human carers or not depending on whether she is lucky enough to get an assistance dog or the person with severe epilepsy.... the list goes on. I'm guessing that they are against having pets at all, too.
Oddly sometimes not but thy sometimes insist on feeding them vegan diets which of course is animal cruelty.
 

bulkbiker

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Theoretically, the land used to grow crops to feed animals could be used to grow crops to feed people. What people are willing to do is a completely separate question. I don't see why monocultures, decimated wildlife and artificial fertiliser would be any more of a problem than they are at present.
What about the and where we can't grow stuff but animals can graze quite comfortably.. that would be out of food production so overall productivity would fall? Moors, steep slopes rocky land... grass grows almost everywhere (apart obviously from extremes of temperature) so can be used as animal food.
 

Guzzler

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Oddly sometimes not but thy sometimes insist on feeding them vegan diets which of course is animal cruelty.

Sorry to go on about this but... they can have a pet dog but must not train it? How does that work when you are looking to house train a pup? Pfft!
 

Oldvatr

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I was aware that scientists are working on replacements for artificial fertilisers but I wasn't aware that governments are trying to phase out their use - could you provide a link? Thanks.
I think there are alternatives available but not as cheap to produce or as efficient, The so called chemical fertilizers are indeed derived from the distillate from the refactory process used to refine crude into its constituent parts. These will become less attractive as the oil reserves run out.

The other artificial ones (as in man made) are derived from either atmospheric nitrogen or ammonia (oxidized urea of which there is a plentiful supply so long as man and animals inhabit the earth) There are also fertilizers derived from potash or guano, but these are again finite resources. Composting from recycling is also of interest, but we have not got our act together on that for it to be industrially viable. Of course there is still the sludge gulpers and cesspits that get sprayed onto the fields, usually on a nice hot sunny day.

The organo phosphates were the answer to Monsanto's prayer for a while but are now heavily restricted due to health hazards,
 

bulkbiker

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This is an interview with the lead author on that particular article

http://www.oxfordtoday.ox.ac.uk/interviews/what-if-we-all-turned-vegan-2050

it contains such gems as this

" If the world adopted a vegan diet in the year 2050, in that single year it could cut greenhouse gas emissions by two thirds, save $1.5trillion in climate damages and healthcare-related expenditure, and reduce global mortality by 10 per cent, which means eight fewer million deaths from chronic diseases."

Greenhouse gas emissions reduced by 2/3? interestingly he doesn't seem to say how.. all those non existent cow farts I guess...
 
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lucylocket61

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This is an interview with the lead author on that particular article

http://www.oxfordtoday.ox.ac.uk/interviews/what-if-we-all-turned-vegan-2050

it contains such gems as this

" If the world adopted a vegan diet in the year 2050, in that single year it could cut greenhouse gas emissions by two thirds, save $1.5trillion in climate damages and healthcare-related expenditure, and reduce global mortality by 10 per cent, which means eight fewer million deaths from chronic diseases."

Greenhouse gas emissions reduced by 2/3? interestingly he doesn't seem to say how.. all those non existent cow farts I guess...

he also says:
Meat production is responsible for the greatest portion of food-related greenhouse gas emissions, similar in scale to that of transport. Most of those emissions are caused by the methane that cows produce and by the industrial growth of animal feed, which drives encroachment of agricultural land into formerly forested areas.

so where does he think all this extra plant foods for humans will come from, if not from expanding our agricultural land into formerly forested areas? And his models make no allowance for the further deforestation affect on the climate due to needing more agricultural land to feed an even bigger population than we have now.

(bolding mine)
 
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Bluetit1802

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If the plan is to use more land to grow more crops they had better be quick before it all disappears under new housing. :arghh:
 

Guzzler

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If the plan is to use more land to grow more crops they had better be quick before it all disappears under new housing. :arghh:

That's OK, they can build the houses on flood plains ;)
 

Oldvatr

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That's OK, they can build the houses on flood plains ;)
They do.... Our council gave the go ahead to build on land next to the river that gets flooded each year, and a local estate agent was offering a free wetsuit for every applicant. Every home was sold, and they are now expanding it massively to cope with demand. There are no shops or facilities, but the estate will soon house nearly 15000 people. Most roads on the estate are one way only, so makes it difficult to visit. Apparently that deters boy racers, but in fact it encourages them more because they stand less chance of meeting themselves coming the other way. This large estate has only 2 entrance/exit junction onto the same main road to the motorway so all traffic ends up at the same place, and there is gridlock during term time. Again this is to deter through traffic and rat runs.

Edit to add: the land they used belonged to a cattle farmer who used a traction engine to do his work. It was a lovely sight to see,
 
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Guzzler

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They do.... Our council gave the go ahead to build on land next to the river that gets flooded each year, and a local estate agent was offering a free wetsuit for every applicant. Every home was sold, and they are now expanding it massively to cope with demand. There are no shops or facilities, but the estate will soon house nearly 15000 people. Most roads on the estate are one way only, so makes it difficult to visit. Apparently that deters boy racers, but in fact it encourages them more because they stand less chance of meeting themselves coming the other way. This large estate has only 2 entrance/exit junction onto the same main road to the motorway so all traffic ends up at the same place, and there is gridlock during term time. Again this is to deter through traffic and rat runs.

Aye, people stuck with houses they can't sell, can't live in and for a while couldn't get insurance for (until the government stepped in to force insurers to provide cover (at an eexorbitant rate)) but still have to pay the mortgage on. I shouldn't have joked about it.
 

Bluetit1802

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They do.... Our council gave the go ahead to build on land next to the river that gets flooded each year, and a local estate agent was offering a free wetsuit for every applicant. Every home was sold, and they are now expanding it massively to cope with demand. There are no shops or facilities, but the estate will soon house nearly 15000 people. Most roads on the estate are one way only, so makes it difficult to visit. Apparently that deters boy racers, but in fact it encourages them more because they stand less chance of meeting themselves coming the other way. This large estate has only 2 entrance/exit junction onto the same main road to the motorway so all traffic ends up at the same place, and there is gridlock during term time. Again this is to deter through traffic and rat runs.

Edit to add: the land they used belonged to a cattle farmer who used a traction engine to do his work. It was a lovely sight to see,

Ditto here. One estate on its own has 2,000 houses built or being built. (there are several others) The roads are designed exactly as you say, and spill out onto one of the 3 roads into our small market town. The developers are being forced to build a roundabout at the junction with the dual carriageway by-pass, meaning the road into the town has been closed for a month and will be closed for another 5 months. This has caused total nightmarish chaos on the other 2 roads to the town.

But it doesn't matter because we are not a crop growing area, just a lot of sheep and cows, so it isn't taking up land for crop growing.
 

Keith_Simpson

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Just been reading the paper and researchers from Oxford University are suggesting putting a tax on red meat and bacon. This will include mincemeat, burgers, sausages also steak, lamb, pork. Sausages and bacon and other processed food, a whopping 79% on sausages, bacon and other processed foods. Red meat, in general, a 14% tax on. The researchers are saying that it will save lives as these products cause Heart Disease, Diabetes and Cancer. This was also talked about on LBC this morning. If this turns out that the Government does this, our meat will be very expensive. Nanny state or what?
Perhaps they should tax fat but not lean meat [red or otherwise] which I eat as something that doesn't put my glucose levels up.