Tax on red meat and bacon??

[Oldvatr]

Kind of crazy that the whole piece is based upon the IARC study which has been shown (certainly in the case of red meat) to be based on very dodgy studies. A whole series of assumptions has then been made that lead to crazy projections they reckon that 20% of deaths could be avoided.. So veganism is a cause of immortality? What would happen to the global population if this were adopted 15 bio in 30 years?.. how would they grow all the soya beans and wheat to feed them? Utter madness.

Link to the actual piece of work all based on a fallacious "association"

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0204139

Their first two and most important studies in the introduction they reference are [1] and [2]. It turns out that [1] is one that they wrote previously so they plagiarised themselves. There are also other Oxford Uni docs in the references. So much for Academic Independence. I think one of the EU references is that symposium where it was led by a renowned Vegan Professor from Boston, as we discussed in another thread.

 

[Guzzler]

Note to self: No harm in stocking up on red meat, bacon and charcuterie. Best get more butter too just in case they aim for all animal products. There, job's a goodun'.

 

[Bluetit1802]

What's so funny is these guys are supposed to be intelligent....

They are students. Their brains haven't fully developed yet.

It is nothing to do with the Government. It is purely something suggested by the university gang that prepared the paper. (probably the vegan society members) I find it highly unlikely any government would implement it.

 

[bulkbiker]

They are students. Their brains haven't fully developed yet.

It is nothing to do with the Government. It is purely something suggested by the university gang that prepared the paper. (probably the vegan society members) I find it highly unlikely any government would implement it.

We can but hope.. all the MP's need their steak dinners I guess...

 

[Guzzler]

What is a vegaquarian? I'm guessing that it is a vegetarian that eats seafood, so not a vegetarian at all.
Flexitarian was a new one on me, too. If you eat the flesh of animals then in my opinion you cannot call yourself a vegi.

 

[Dark Horse]

This is an academic paper, not a government proposal. Veganism is not being advocated:-

As a result, processed meat consumption would decrease by about one serving per week (12 g/d) in high-income countries and less than a third of a serving per week (4 g/d) in upper middle-income countries. As consumers are projected to partially switch from processed meat to unprocessed meat and other substitutes such as poultry, red meat consumption would remain largely unchanged in those regions despite its increase price.
​

The authors also include the following caveat:-

Both our health estimates and our emissions estimates would change depending on the food groups that would compensate for the reductions in processed meat consumption. For example, greater consumption of sugar and refined carbohydrates, something that is associated with negative health impacts [51], could compensate some of the health benefits associated with lower consumption of processed meat. ​

 

[Oldvatr]

I can understand the possibility that processed meats and fish may be carcinogenic, simply because of modern methods of presevation to extend supermarket shelf life. The use of nitrites in particular are suspect, seeing what they do when used in weedkillers such as Roundup that attracted such adverse notices. I now avoid kippers for this reason - they are nothing like the ones I used to eat in my youth that came 'fresh' from the fishmonger. Anything 'smoked' nowadays are chemically fabricated including cheeses.

 

[bulkbiker]

This is an academic paper, not a government proposal. Veganism is not being advocated:-

As a result, processed meat consumption would decrease by about one serving per week (12 g/d) in high-income countries and less than a third of a serving per week (4 g/d) in upper middle-income countries. As consumers are projected to partially switch from processed meat to unprocessed meat and other substitutes such as poultry, red meat consumption would remain largely unchanged in those regions despite its increase price.
​

The authors also include the following caveat:-

Both our health estimates and our emissions estimates would change depending on the food groups that would compensate for the reductions in processed meat consumption. For example, greater consumption of sugar and refined carbohydrates, something that is associated with negative health impacts [51], could compensate some of the health benefits associated with lower consumption of processed meat. ​

erm

"On the other hand, replacement of red and processed meat with legumes, fruits and vegetables, or whole grains could lead to additional health benefits without significantly affecting the emissions reductions identified here"

 

[Deleted Account]

What is a vegaquarian? I'm guessing that it is a vegetarian that eats seafood, so not a vegetarian at all.

Most people call it pescatarian but I think vegaquarian is more fun
I don't say I am a veggie because I also eat fish.

I do not eat meat. This was a ethical decision I made 25 years ago when it was very difficult to get free range meat and I haven't missed it since. It has never been a health-based decision.

 

[Dark Horse]

erm

"On the other hand, replacement of red and processed meat with legumes, fruits and vegetables, or whole grains could lead to additional health benefits without significantly affecting the emissions reductions identified here"

Remember that the researchers are talking about replacing one portion of red or processed meat per week in high income countries. Even if you replace that one portioin with fruit and veg, it doesn't make you a vegan.

 

[Guzzler]

Most people call it pescatarian but I think vegaquarian is more fun
I don't say I am a veggie because I also eat fish.

I do not eat meat. This was a ethical decision I made 25 years ago when it was very difficult to get free range meat and I haven't missed it since. It has never been a health-based decision.

I looked up the prices of free range/pasture fed meat locally. I almost spilled my cuppa!

 

[Boo1979]

Maybe because of what they eat rather than "genetics"? I always fear that "genetics" is used as a catch all for things that can't be easily explained.. a bit like the French "paradox" with sat fat according to Ancel Keys.. it usually means that the thing being considered is simply incorrect and there is another cause..

Both are important
The genetics of disease are important in terms of the relative vulnerability to develop a particular disease. Individuals with a high heritability for a particular disease will Be more likely to develop the disease than will another individual with a lower genetic vulnerabilty in the same circumstances
Epigenetics and the science of gene expression are important in understanding how/if that genetically mediated vulnerability is activated or not.

 

[PenguinMum]

Without my Diabetes perspective I dont think the Goverment should try make us eat what they think is right, advise they can. I like meat, fish and vegetables and I make my own choices about ratios and quality and thats how it should be. Equally those who choose Vegan, vegetarian, vegaquarian, etc should do just that...choose! Nobody has the right to disrespect peoples choices and that includes politicians IMO...but what do I know?

 

[bulkbiker]

Remember that the researchers are talking about replacing one portion of red or processed meat per week in high income countries. Even if you replace that one portioin with fruit and veg, it doesn't make you a vegan.

Possibly but we should also remember that the lead researcher is an outspoken vegan so the paper is written from that perspective and he references his own papers 2 or 3 times in the new piece. I'm afraid I can see where he is coming from only too well.

 

[Guzzler]

Without my Diabetes perspective I dont think the Goverment should try make us eat what they think is right, advise they can. I like meat, fish and vegetables and I make my own choices about ratios and quality and thats how it should be. Equally those who choose Vegan, vegetarian, vegaquarian, etc should do just that...choose! Nobody has the right to disrespect peoples choices and that includes politicians IMO...but what do I know?

You are, in essence, right but look what happened with rates of smoking. We were given all the advice and knowledge and numbers fell but the decrease was sharper as the tax on ciggies was hiked.

 

[lucylocket61]

You are, in essence, right but look what happened with rates of smoking. We were given all the advice and knowledge and numbers fell but the decrease was sharper as the tax on ciggies was hiked.

I think the sharper decrease coincided with banning places one could smoke, and public disapproval of inflicting smoke on others.

 

[Oldvatr]

Remember that the researchers are talking about replacing one portion of red or processed meat per week in high income countries. Even if you replace that one portioin with fruit and veg, it doesn't make you a vegan.

I have already replaced at least one portion of meat a week simply by becoming diabetic.

 

[lucylocket61]

it just another way of taxing us, in the guise of being for our health.

there is a huge pro-vegan thing going on as people are realizing this planet cant sustain us all, let alone the future increase in population.

However, we cant feed all the people on vegan stuff either. Much land is not suitable for agriculture, and where will the manure/fertilizer come from? etc etc etc. no joined up thinking going on here.

 

[Guzzler]

I think the sharper decrease coincided with banning places one could smoke, and public disapproval of inflicting smoke on others.

It was indeed a multipronged initiative but most of the people I have spoken to have said that they had to give up because they just couldn't afford it any more. No one has said they gave up because they had to go outdoors to do it and some are now complaining that even though they vape outdoors they are experiencing kick backs. But let's get back to red meat and it's supposed ill affect on us and the rumour that extra taxes may be added.

 

[PenguinMum]

Are there no farmers with Diabetes on this site to give us their perspective.