Lesser carb, lesser insulin: consequences

[Guzzler]

You missed out the agriculture revolution in between. Farmers led a physically active lifestyle. A high carb diet suits an active lifestyle as insulin works very well on depleted muscles.

Problem arises when one is not physically active. The excess carbs have no place to go and sedentary muscles do not have much storage limit for glycogen. This combined with high carb intake for prolong time will stressed the pancreas till it starts to detoriate.

Erm... I am without choice a person who is almost 100% sedentary. And yet with dietary changes and Metformin only I now sit here with non D numbers.

 

[NicoleC1971]

Many of us including myself have successfully controlled bg levels by carb restriction. I want to discuss if low carbs, lesser insulin can cause body to be less nourished given that insulin is an important anabolic hormone that drive many nutrients into our cells.

If the question is Do we need insulin? then the answer is yes (it is analogous to the spark for petrol in a combustion engine). Do you need to eat starchy carbs to generate insulin. No. The lower carb you go the more gluconeogensis goes on (conversion of protein into glucose) and non starchy veg still require a little insulin to digest them.
As has been pointed out we are evolved to work on minimal levels of insulin and longevity studies seem to show that the less you have, the better but there is a physiological limit to how low this can go unless you are a type 1.. Those modern and traditional peoples who do well on a high starch diet e.g. Katarvans are acutely insulin sensitive probably because they eat non processed food and do not have huge blood sugar spikes that the majority of people eating a modern diet will get unless they are a) genetically blessed b) professional athletes.
Sadly there seems to be no easy way to measure basal insulin to check that you are insulin sensitive before we run into disease processes so we have to go for proxy measures e.g. thickening waist line, hypertension , fatty liver and eventually type 2 diabetes.
Re brain and glucose - the body preferentially uses glucose for the brain but can adapt to a mixed fuel of both ketones and glucose. Hence even pure carnivores are converting some of those steaks into glucose for use by the brain.
As a long standing type 1(with no endogenous insulin I assume) I am always amazed at how much basal insulin is needed ! On a low carb diet it is always so much more than my bolus doses (a ration of 3:1 unless I've been eating too many Easter eggs).

 

[LooperCat]

I think a lot of the problems stem from the increased bioavailability of the carbohydrate from modern cultivars of grains, root veg etc. We hardly have to even digest the stuff for the glucose contained in the cells to be released any more. Plumper grains, larger, starchier veg - these are all a world away from what our ancestors were eating, even when their diets featured these foods heavily. Their bodies really had to work to get at the energy contained within. That’s why it all tastes so sweet - glucose is being released as soon as we start to chew!

 

[millenium]

Erm... I am without choice a person who is almost 100% sedentary. And yet with dietary changes and Metformin only I now sit here with non D numbers.

That is fair enough. Being ketogenic could be a natural adaptation mechanism.

 

[millenium]

If the question is Do we need insulin? then the answer is yes (it is analogous to the spark for petrol in a combustion engine). Do you need to eat starchy carbs to generate insulin. No. The lower carb you go the more gluconeogensis goes on (conversion of protein into glucose) and non starchy veg still require a little insulin to digest them.
As has been pointed out we are evolved to work on minimal levels of insulin and longevity studies seem to show that the less you have, the better but there is a physiological limit to how low this can go unless you are a type 1.. Those modern and traditional peoples who do well on a high starch diet e.g. Katarvans are acutely insulin sensitive probably because they eat non processed food and do not have huge blood sugar spikes that the majority of people eating a modern diet will get unless they are a) genetically blessed b) professional athletes.
Sadly there seems to be no easy way to measure basal insulin to check that you are insulin sensitive before we run into disease processes so we have to go for proxy measures e.g. thickening waist line, hypertension , fatty liver and eventually type 2 diabetes.
Re brain and glucose - the body preferentially uses glucose for the brain but can adapt to a mixed fuel of both ketones and glucose. Hence even pure carnivores are converting some of those steaks into glucose for use by the brain.
As a long standing type 1(with no endogenous insulin I assume) I am always amazed at how much basal insulin is needed ! On a low carb diet it is always so much more than my bolus doses (a ration of 3:1 unless I've been eating too many Easter eggs).

My question can be.... Can the low insulin caused by very low carb diet compromise the body from ultimate functioning?

If the question is Do we need insulin? then the answer is yes (it is analogous to the spark for petrol in a combustion engine). Do you need to eat starchy carbs to generate insulin. No. The lower carb you go the more gluconeogensis goes on (conversion of protein into glucose) and non starchy veg still require a little insulin to digest them.
As has been pointed out we are evolved to work on minimal levels of insulin and longevity studies seem to show that the less you have, the better but there is a physiological limit to how low this can go unless you are a type 1.. Those modern and traditional peoples who do well on a high starch diet e.g. Katarvans are acutely insulin sensitive probably because they eat non processed food and do not have huge blood sugar spikes that the majority of people eating a modern diet will get unless they are a) genetically blessed b) professional athletes.
Sadly there seems to be no easy way to measure basal insulin to check that you are insulin sensitive before we run into disease processes so we have to go for proxy measures e.g. thickening waist line, hypertension , fatty liver and eventually type 2 diabetes.
Re brain and glucose - the body preferentially uses glucose for the brain but can adapt to a mixed fuel of both ketones and glucose. Hence even pure carnivores are converting some of those steaks into glucose for use by the brain.
As a long standing type 1(with no endogenous insulin I assume) I am always amazed at how much basal insulin is needed ! On a low carb diet it is always so much more than my bolus doses (a ration of 3:1 unless I've been eating too many Easter eggs).

Very sound explanations.

 

[Guzzler]

That is fair enough. Being ketogenic could be a natural adaptation mechanism.

Or just a natural state.

 

[NicoleC1971]

My question can be.... Can the low insulin caused by very low carb diet compromise the body from ultimate functioning?


Very sound explanations.

If the main function of insulin is to manage energy flux/facilitate growth then I'd guess we would see low carb and keto folks complaining of low energy/fatigue (which they do as their bodies adapt but after that seem to feel great) however I think it is fair to say that nobody is entirely sure if there are detrimental effects of a low insulin diet'; nutrition being a very young and problematic science. The main objections to the low carb approach is that it is high fat and therefore may hypothetically cause heart disease (despite huge efforts this hasn't been proven). However I think we do know the detrimental effects on some people of a high insulin diet!!
.Interestingly the jury still seems to be out for high performance athletes requiring a burst of energy to the muscles to complete a sprint or shoot a hoop etc. which is a great excuse to eat a little chocolate before a high intensity session....

 

[Happy hippy]

You can survive or even thrive eating only meat.
You can survive and may be thrive on a diet of total or near total fat.

Eat a diet that consists of just carbohydrates and you would survive for about two months.

This should give an indication of the necessity for carbs in your diet if you eat them exclusively they will kill you in a relatively short time instead of slowly over a longer period .

 

[Happy hippy]

JohnE Green.
Hi. Thanks for information. The carb bit i found worrying.
I want to go low carb but I have ulcerative colitis and my bowel stays calm with carby food.
I have a delemer. Do I eat for my bowel or my type 2.
Regards. Maddy.

 

[kokhongw]

As a long standing type 1(with no endogenous insulin I assume) I am always amazed at how much basal insulin is needed ! On a low carb diet it is always so much more than my bolus doses (a ration of 3:1 unless I've been eating too many Easter eggs).

That is likely because exogenous/injected insulin cannot reach the same level of concentration in the liver vs release from the pancreas to inhibit glucagon action. This was highlighted in Amy Berger blogpost referenced in this thread.
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/beyond-insulin.162464/#post-2012033

 

[kokhongw]

From an evolutionary point of view, humans are likely to be healthier without excessive carbs. But too low carbs maybe compromise brain functioning. I am not familiar with brain functioning on ketones though, so I cannot comment on this.

Ketones ARE neuroprotective. This presentation by Dr Stephen Cunnane provide some useful insights...

 

[millenium]

If the main function of insulin is to manage energy flux/facilitate growth then I'd guess we would see low carb and keto folks complaining of low energy/fatigue (which they do as their bodies adapt but after that seem to feel great) however I think it is fair to say that nobody is entirely sure if there are detrimental effects of a low insulin diet'; nutrition being a very young and problematic science. The main objections to the low carb approach is that it is high fat and therefore may hypothetically cause heart disease (despite huge efforts this hasn't been proven). However I think we do know the detrimental effects on some people of a high insulin diet!!
.Interestingly the jury still seems to be out for high performance athletes requiring a burst of energy to the muscles to complete a sprint or shoot a hoop etc. which is a great excuse to eat a little chocolate before a high intensity session....

Insulin when effective in the body is a great booster to move nutrients into body cells but when present inefficiently, it has harmful effects on the body

Ketones ARE neuroprotective. This presentation by Dr Stephen Cunnane provide some useful insights...

Agree with u. But to get into ketosis and keep it there can be challenging.

 

[NicoleC1971]

That is likely because exogenous/injected insulin cannot reach the same level of concentration in the liver vs release from the pancreas to inhibit glucagon action. This was highlighted in Amy Berger blogpost referenced in this thread.
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/beyond-insulin.162464/#post-2012033

View attachment 32500

Thanks for that link. Also seen Ben Bikman and am surprised nobody had ever mentioned to me that endogemous insulin supresses glucagon/alpha cells in the pancreas whereas the exogenous stuff doesn't hence I need a steady drip of insulin just to cope with that effect. So much nore complicated that carbs vs. insulin!

 

[NicoleC1971]

Insulin when effective in the body is a great booster to move nutrients into body cells but when present inefficiently, it has harmful effects on the body


Agree with u. But to get into ketosis and keep it there can be challenging.

I am living proof that too little insulin is damaging and prior to 1922 was deadly, but lets not forget that most type 2s are insulin resistant and typically produce too much insulin. Even when metabolically healed with beta cells recovered they may be the type of person who's prone to over-secrete insulin.

 

[millenium]

I am living proof that too little insulin is damaging and prior to 1922 was deadly, but lets not forget that most type 2s are insulin resistant and typically produce too much insulin. Even when metabolically healed with beta cells recovered they may be the type of person who's prone to over-secrete insulin.

Agree.

 

[Guzzler]

Insulin when effective in the body is a great booster to move nutrients into body cells but when present inefficiently, it has harmful effects on the body


Agree with u. But to get into ketosis and keep it there can be challenging.

"Challenging" is rather a subjective term.

 

[millenium]

"Challenging" is rather a subjective term.

I am reading on ketone metabolism and I come across this. These caught my attention. It generates free radicals. During non fasted and carb limited time, our livers also produce Keynes.

https://www.diapedia.org/metabolism-and-hormones/51040851169/ketone-body-metabolism

Ketone bodies stimulate insulin release in vitro, generate oxygen radicals and cause lipid peroxidation. Lipid peroxidation and the generation of oxygen radicals may play a role in vascular disease in diabetes[2].

 

[Guzzler]

I am reading on ketone metabolism and I come across this. These caught my attention. It generates free radicals. During non fasted and carb limited time, our livers also produce Keynes.

https://www.diapedia.org/metabolism-and-hormones/51040851169/ketone-body-metabolism

Ketone bodies stimulate insulin release in vitro, generate oxygen radicals and cause lipid peroxidation. Lipid peroxidation and the generation of oxygen radicals may play a role in vascular disease in diabetes[2].

In Vitro

 

[Guzzler]

Our ancestors would have been metabolically flexible, able to switch between ketogenesis and glucose metabolism easily enough. The "challenge" for today's human reared on an extremely highly processed, highly refined carb diet is to almost remind the body that it can do very well on the fuel that is said to be cleaner, more efficient, less harmful long term. Remember, the human foetus is in ketosis and the neonate who is solely fed on human breast milk is also using ketones as its main fuel (and why do they gain weight and supply the developing brain with sufficient fuel? Sat fats andOligosaccharides).
Why then, given that all living things are driven to pass on offspring/DNA would the human put at risk of harm and/or death of offspring by evolving to use a fuel that is harmful?

 

[millenium]

Our ancestors would have been metabolically flexible, able to switch between ketogenesis and glucose metabolism easily enough. The "challenge" for today's human reared on an extremely highly processed, highly refined carb diet is to almost remind the body that it can do very well on the fuel that is said to be cleaner, more efficient, less harmful long term. Remember, the human foetus is in ketosis and the neonate who is solely fed on human breast milk is also using ketones as its main fuel (and why do they gain weight and supply the developing brain with sufficient fuel? Sat fats andOligosaccharides).
Why then, given that all living things are driven to pass on offspring/DNA would the human put at risk of harm and/or death of offspring by evolving to use a fuel that is harmful?

Your argument make sense.