Dawn Phenomenon (yeah...again)

[Roggg]

I know this is a much discussed topic, but there's something I struggle to find a good evidence-based answer for. I know what the dawn phenomenon is, roughly why it happens etc. What I don't know is what to do about it. For context, I do keto, and IF. Most of the time I do 20/4 or OMAD. Occasionally I eat a "normal" day which for me is roughly 12/12. Every now and then I fast 36 - 50 hours. Lately I'm finding on 20/4 or OMAD days, my BG starts high 6 or low 7, but it doesn't seem to drop very much before I eat. On 12/12 days, my BG seems to drop after breakfast into the low 6s or even 5s. On long fasts, it takes more than 24 hours to get to a good level, and I sometimes see levels in the 5s the next day or two. Oh, and I eat keto (or very close to keto) all the while. So experience suggests that 20/4 or OMAD is causing BG levels to be higher than 12/12.

So the question part...is it healthier to abandon time-restricted eating so I can get lower levels during the day? Or is the dawn phenomenon depleting liver glycogen that will ultimately help resolve insulin resistance? Is anyone aware of any studies in this area?

 

[bulkbiker]

First question would be how long have you been doing this for?

 

[ert]

What type of diabetes do you have? Are you on any medication? I'm an OMAD person (though I had to Google the acronym). Is your fasting helping with weight loss?
Here is an article on the dawn phenomenon:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...n, also called,a.m. — in people with diabetes.

 

[MarkMunday]

......is it healthier to abandon time-restricted eating so I can get lower levels during the day? Or is the dawn phenomenon depleting liver glycogen that will ultimately help resolve insulin resistance? Is anyone aware of any studies in this area?

That eating more often reduces blood glucose could be caused by the incretin effect. Eating causes secretion of gut hormones that increase insulin production. Eating as often as produces the best results would seem to make the most sense.

 

[AloeSvea]

@Roggg, you are struggling to find evidence for the eating and not eating effect on the Dawn Phenomenom because you are basically looking at it! In the mirror, and in here, as far as I can see. And with Dr Jason Fung, and Prof Taylor, and all the IFers and longer fasting practitioners which you already know about.

Pop in to any medical centre, endicrinology department, and centre for diabetes research and start talking about window of time eating etc and you will get blank looks. Except of course in wonderful exceptions that prove the rule! Please correct me if I am wrong - I will love to hear it.

We live in 'interesting' times when it comes to diabetes. We live in a time when pharmacology rules even with metabolic disease. In the public eye there is still enormous confusion about the two main and different kinds of diabetes because of an unfortunate, in my opinion, dual naming situation. Let alone the fine tuning of our blood glucose regulation that we are discussing in here!

According to my own understanding, you will be your own point of evidence for the effectiveness of what you are doing! N=1, and all that.

All the science supporting your experimention with your blood glucose regulation is out there. This you already know. I believe.

 

[Roggg]

Answers:
How long have I been doing this? About 2 months consistently now.

@ert I'm T2 on metformin and jardience. My weight is stable, but I'm not significantly overweight. Everything I do is mainly for reversing T2/insulin resistance.

@AloeSvea @MarkMunday Yeah I guess I need to run my own experiments to find out. I kind of hate N=1 though. There are so few controls, it's not really feasible to get any reliable conclusions.

 

[Lilylala]

Hi I have been doing omad since 1/2/20 and have reduced my insulin to zero but I still have not got a morning reading below 7 mmo l on average it is hovering around the 9 mmo l range so I too am really not seeing any change to my dawn phenomenon readings even after 8 months of omad but have lost 3 stone and completely off insulin now for 2 weeks .Also my pre meal reading is on average is 5 mmo l so my daily reading on average is 8 mmo l with no medication and I'm a T2.Also my omad is 23/1 .

 

[VashtiB]

Hello,

Your experience is similar to my own. Most days are OMAD but on Wednesday I have morning tea/lunch at work and that also Brin gs down my levels earlier than OMAD. For me- I am planning to stick with the OMAD until such time as I have no more weight to lose ( a long time a way) on most days but not every day. At work it is easy except to the Wednesday as I am literally so busy I would find it tough to find time to eat. Weekends are a bit more challenging so I tend to eat lunch to afternoon snack and then dinner.

I agree that you need to test on yourself but for me I regularly test and if my levels went really high (hello stress) I consider eating something very low carb.

Good luck.

 

[LittleGreyCat]

I am struggling with both extended DP and BG rise due to strenuous exercise.

I mainly eat OMAD at between 16:00 and 18:00, apart from coffee,cream and butter soon after waking.

The morning coffee rules out the usual DP advice which trends to be "have some cream in your coffee".

I may try something slightly carby in the morning as well, but I seem to get a BG rise whatever I do, which peaks around noon (at the moment still adjusting to clock change) and then drops down to normal quite quickly.

However every day is slightly different.

I would love a solution which makes my insulin kick in early, especially when I intend to exercise, but apart from injecting a small amount of insulin to cover off DP (which I wish to avoid for various reasons) I can't see anything at the moment.

Having a bit of something sugary first thing just seems to replicate the DP and not get a lower/sooner peak.

 

[Roggg]

I think the questions I ask sometimes don't have answers yet. I'm going to stop fasting (beyond 12/12) for a while and see how things look. Thanks for the feedback all...

 

[Roggg]

Weird, Last week I switched to eating 12/12, and having breakfast everyday. Initially my glucose readings before lunch were better, but after a few days, my fasting reading actually started going upon (in the 8s), and then my pre-lunch readings crept up a bit too. Back to 20/4 this week.

I think I need CGM to really figure this out. Each protocol has some peculiarities, and it's hard to know which offers the best average levels.

 

[OrsonKartt]

I know this is a much discussed topic, but there's something I struggle to find a good evidence-based answer for. I know what the dawn phenomenon is, roughly why it happens etc. What I don't know is what to do about it. For context, I do keto, and IF. Most of the time I do 20/4 or OMAD. Occasionally I eat a "normal" day which for me is roughly 12/12. Every now and then I fast 36 - 50 hours. Lately I'm finding on 20/4 or OMAD days, my BG starts high 6 or low 7, but it doesn't seem to drop very much before I eat. On 12/12 days, my BG seems to drop after breakfast into the low 6s or even 5s. On long fasts, it takes more than 24 hours to get to a good level, and I sometimes see levels in the 5s the next day or two. Oh, and I eat keto (or very close to keto) all the while. So experience suggests that 20/4 or OMAD is causing BG levels to be higher than 12/12.

So the question part...is it healthier to abandon time-restricted eating so I can get lower levels during the day? Or is the dawn phenomenon depleting liver glycogen that will ultimately help resolve insulin resistance? Is anyone aware of any studies in this area?

Hi - interesting thread here and I’m on the same page as you I believe. - I’ve been very low carb now for 4 years - gone less carb and more time restricted eating as time goes on. With my day time levels going higher. I’ve just splurged out on a couple of Libre sensors so I can test as many times during the day / night as I please .

There seem to be many narratives about what’s good or not and I’d love to see some science.

Meanwhile today I ate early ( 8am).

Testing , one two , one two

Let n=1


Best thoughts all

 

[nutribolt]

Thats an interesting thread. I have been following LCHF with Intermittent Fasting ADF (4:3) aka 36 hours fast every alternate day resulting in 4 eating and 3 fasting days a week. I have been doing it for just over a month and it is the same amount of time I have been off medication now. I too recently experienced a little raised sugar levels for entire day on fasting days and after reading and asking around concluded that that is a good thing and that high readings are due to liver dumping excess fat stored over the years so I stretched my 36 hour fast to 72 hours and ever since that longer fasting the sugar levels seem to have stabilised and are normally falling in range of 4.4 to 6.8 ...

I am not suggesting 72 hour fasting is needed to get it down.. one could in theory perhaps continue with their normal fasting and still expect readings to become stable in due course but if we want Liver to burn all that excess reserve quickly we need to stop the external supply - that is the logic I applied and so far it seems to be working.

 

[ljshipley]

Thank you for this thread. Via LCHF diet and daily exercise, my morning fasting blood glucose level was consistently under 100 mg/dl. Normally, low 90's to mid 80's. Initially, I started to skip breakfast everyday and the morning fasting blood glucose levels stayed the same. When I transitioned to OMAD, I started seeing my morning fasting blood glucose level move up to 99 mg/dl and then after a week or so, they moved up to 110-113 mg/dl. I am going to tweak some things to see if something changes. But thanks for the tread.

 

[ultradad]

I found reducing my protein has helped sort out my morning bloods. I was eating 3 times a day and my morning bloods were in the 5's. Now i eat about 90 - 100 grams of protien a day and 100+ grams of fats ( just a estimate as i dont go checking everything ) and its been 4 - 4.5 in the morning for 6 months. My weight had stalled at 14 stone so i cut out my midday meal and i have been in the 12 stone range for a few months now.
I was watching this video by Dr. Benjamin Bikman and it fits in perfectly what i saw with myself and is also very helpful with how insulin and glucagon work in the body

Hope you find the video helpful