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Fats and Insulin Resistance

bulkbiker said:
His book has over 30 pages of references..
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If there are any that spring to mind feel free to post it although I appreciate it may be unreasonable to ask. I'd genuinely like to see solid evidence that reducing circulating insulin (independent of calories) causes weight loss.
 
Sean_Raymond said:
If there are any that spring to mind feel free to post it although I appreciate it may be unreasonable to ask. I'd genuinely like to see solid evidence that reducing circulating insulin (independent of calories) causes weight loss.
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Well we know that lack of circulating insulin usually leads to weight loss.. you just need to check with many T1's for whom one of the main leads for diagnosis was unexpected weight loss however much they ate.
 
bulkbiker said:
Well we know that lack of circulating insulin usually leads to weight loss.. you just need to check with many T1's for whom one of the main leads for diagnosis was unexpected weight loss however much they ate.
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This weight loss is a result of not being able to use dietary energy due to a lack of insulin. This causes the body to use its own body stores canabilising protein/fat whilst glucose is also poured in the urine if the blood sugars exceed the renal threshold. The weight loss could essentially be said to also be the result of a calorie deficit because much of the dietary energy isn't being used and or excreted out.

I have never seen controlled studies showing that lowering insulin causes weight loss and it is a very testable idea. Indeed, this has been done and the results showed that it didn't happen.

I am not anti-low carbohydrate diets at all, they clearly help people lose weight and better control their blood sugars - I just find the explanation for why they help not convincing. At a biochemical and physiological level it just doesn't add up. If it did I have no reason not to believe it - infact I once did and was very excited by the idea

You mentioned Ancestral diet, I wondered if the carnivore diet you use is what you consider this to be? It isn't an area I have looked at but I do not recall coming across diets consumed by humans that were zero carb at any point in our history (have you?) although animal foods would likely have made up the majority of the diet for various hunter gathered tribes. I believe even today, tribes closest to hunter gatherers consume diets with large amounts of plant foods. I'm not sure what % of your diet is protein, but if you are in ketosis I assume you are keeping it moderate however moderate to large amounts of protein will still evoke an insulin response. Despite a concomitant rise of glucagon, this will only help dampen the effect insulin has on glucose - the claimed deleterious fat building effects of insulin will not be abolished as far as I am aware..
 
Why don't you show me one controlled study showing insulin reduction causes weight loss. Just one.


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Sean_Raymond said:
he weight loss could essentially be said to also be the result of a calorie deficit because much of the dietary energy isn't being used and or excreted out.
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I have never seen this as a definition of calorie deficit. I have only seen it referring to intake, not ability to utilise. This definition does fit your arguments far better than the usual one does though.
 
 
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HSSS said:
I have never seen this as a definition of calorie deficit. I have only seen it referring to intake, not ability to utilise. This definition does fit your arguments far better than the usual one does though.
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Not a definition, just an explanation. In the case of weight loss that may be seen prior to a type 1 diabetes diagnosis we have a few things happening. Most people will presumably be eating a diet where carbohydrate provides a substantial % of their energy intake. The lack of insulin means they are essentially in a calorie deficit because they are unable to fully access that dietary energy. Energy is also likely being lost in the urine and they may have slightly higher energy expenditure because the lack of insulin is unable to shut down endogenous glucose production in the liver (gluconeogenesis etc) which itself exacerbates loss of body tissue.

Replacing the carbohydrate with higher amounts of dietary fat diet may in theory attenuate weight loss as it will provide useable energy. I don't recall ever seeing any studies using a low carbohydrate protocol for this purpose at diagnosis of type 1 diabetes which isn't surprising. I'm certainly not advocating that to be done either.
 
HSSS said:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190620100036.htm.
Low-carb diet may reduce diabetes risk independent of weight loss: Researchers report reversal of metabolic syndrome in some cases
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Thank you for showing me this. I appreciate that weight loss wasn't the goal of the researchers however they used diets ranging from 6% CHO to 57% CHO matched for energy and protein and we saw no difference in weight loss so what does that tell you. The actual metabolic findings are interesting however the study is by Jeff Volek who is very invested in the idea that insulin is a cause of obesity and it is funded by low CHO groups. Whilst I cannot comment on their sincerity such a clear position needs to be considered.
 
 
Sean_Raymond said:
Certainly. Let me know what you think of these.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27385608/

4 weeks.. hardly time to get into deep nutritional ketosis and certainly not long enough to become fat adapted..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4603544/

6 days.. seriously?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29466592/

Not really a controlled study of low carb diets

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https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1038/oby.2004.278

4 female participants and apparently no significant difference in weight loss.. hmmm looks like quite a difference to me even after only 6 weeks.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2780863/

Low carb diet with bread and potatoes.. ok doesn't sound very low carb to me..
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(PDF) Fat and carbohydrate overfeeding in humans: Different effects on energy storage (researchgate.net)
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Seems to show that even short term in the healthy and obese carbs raise insulin secretion levels will minimal impact on blood glucose levels. ? Still only over 2 weeks though.
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Oops messed up the formatting on the last one.
 
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bulkbiker said:
Seems to show that even short term in the healthy and obese carbs raise insulin secretion levels will minimal impact on blood glucose levels. ? Still only over 2 weeks though.
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Oops messed up the formatting on the last one.
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The trouble of course with all these studies is that they are specifically designed to demonstrate something.. many of them do.. I find the studies that disprove what they set out to show far more appealing and interestingly far rarer.
Unfortunately people will be people are are usually quite happy to lie on food frequency questions and of course have dreadful recall as to what they ate yesterday let alone for a whole year.
This is why the field of human nutritional science is so poor with "maybes" and "possibles" all over the place.
It's not acceptable to take people and lock them up in closed wards for a lifetime plus it's very expensive to feed people for months on end to test reactions to various dietary differences.
I tend to prefer real life changes in markers in health as a guide to what is best for us. We'll never likely know what is "good" and what is "bad" completely but looking at people who have great successes should be used to give us some pointers don't you think.
 
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