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Fats and Insulin Resistance

Discussion in 'Low-carb Diet Forum' started by Sean_Raymond, Jan 6, 2021.

  1. Sean_Raymond

    Sean_Raymond HCP · Well-Known Member

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    Fats do not raise blood glucose levels, they may temporarily affect lipid values. Healthy fats include the fat in meat and dairy plus fruit oils such as olive oil and coconut oil. Healthy fats are calorie dense but are more satisfying so a lower quantity goes far further in keeping hunger at bay. Protein is also very satiating and is the lowest in calorific value. Carbohydrates give a short, sharp burst of energy but the human body cannot store carbs as they are, they are stored as fat especially around the waistline. Because carbs are so readily digested and metabolised we get hungrier much sooner. Carbs are turned into glucose almost as soon as eaten and it is carbs that raise blood glucose levels.

    This is an area that increasingly interests me and I'd love to look deeper in to it. Whilst it is true that dietary fat doesn't directly raise blood sugars a number of studies (not just recent) suggest fat may indirectly impact blood sugars with an acute insulin resistance effect or rather a blunting of the the bodies response to insulin at an acute level. I don't think the mechanisms have been fully elucidated, but off the top of my head the thinking is a possible "Randall" type effect, and or reduced GLUT 4 translocation, FFA interference with suppression of endogenous glucose production. Obviously dietary sugar will have a more profound effect on blood sugars however it is certainly food for thought in the very least for those shaping their diets to optimise it in order to manage BM's. I wonder if anyone else here has looked at this area or found increasing dietary fat impacted glycaemia?

    On a second point. A recent study suggests that a new 5:2 style approach to the Newcastle diet may yield comparable results to the intensive 800 kcal per day diet for 8 weeks (with a step wise reintroduction of foods for another 4 weeks to achieve a portion controlled Mediterranean diet). Instead, the 800kcals was consumed for 2 days and a portion controlled Mediterranean style diet was consumed for the other 5 days - this was done for 6 months. This was then reduced to 1 x 800kcal day if weight maintenance was now the goal. Weight loss and Hba1C <48 was similar in both groups after 12 months (I believe at least 42% (possibly 49%) of the 79 participants achieved this clinical 'remission'). Interventions were done remotely too which is apt in these COVID days. I'm not sure if the study has been released yet, and obviously conclusions cannot be made from 1 study, but whilst weight loss was faster in the 12 week continuous leg by the end results were similar so it is encouraging.


    Note from moderator: This thread has been created by moving several posts originally posted on this thread, as they were not relevant to that thread. The text in bold italics at the start is a quote from a post on that thread, which started this conversation.
     
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    #1 Sean_Raymond, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:29 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2021
  2. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    What kind of dietary fats were you thinking of? Its pretty hard to find foods ( and let's face it we eat food not "fat" or "protein") that have only fat.
     
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  3. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I obviously haven't had enough tea and coffee this morning, as I missed the year plus ago aspect of the original poster's question until the end- but this subject is of great interest to me - both the original one about weight loss/getting better with type two and the various dynamite treatment methods.

    The way I look at the impact of fats on us getting insulin resistant to begin with (and I say this as a person who has had insulin resistance big time, and I guess off and on? for over three decades now, with various organ dysfunction over time) - is that dietary high fat is dangerous in relation to eating high carbs. Eating lots of fat, especially these new processed oils that are in our modern diets big time, in combination with lots of carbs is just too much for our human bods. (And any omniverous mammal probably.) This is the easiest way for me to understand it, as the science is very involved, and the diagrams about the process on our body's is intense! I have given the correct names and references in other postings, and I really haven't had enough coffee yet to find links at the mo :).

    So in practice this means - eating low carb, as low carb as you can go basically, allows us to eat high/er healthy fat and keep healthy. Including being normal weighted-to lean.

    Eating low carb also gives the push to eating whole foods, and keeping away from processed food and I would say wheat and probably dairy (although I hate to say it as I love dairy) - especially the new wheat we have had since the 70s, the dwarf wheat, which seems to be metabolically much more difficult for we humans to digest well and be healthy with. And being tolerant to dairy could be a mixed boon for those of us with insulin resistance based diabetes, as it does raise insulin (which in turn - raised insulin - can lead to too high levels for our cells to deal with so need to become resistant to the insulin to save us from - well - too early death! Is an easy way to look at it.)

    Eating protein and fats is very likely the 'go to' for us as a species, with carbs as a rarer and jolly adjunct - not the bulk of our diets as it has become in modern times, and certainly NOT what I was raised on from the time of ribena in my baby bottle.

    Metabolic disease and cardio-vascular disease basically being titanic evolutionary mismatch diseases. (This is the human evolutionary biology perspective.) It makes complete sense, to me at least.
     
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  4. Sean_Raymond

    Sean_Raymond HCP · Well-Known Member

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    This is a good point. We eat mixed meals with different macronutrients in different ratios so studies showing the effect of a particular nutrient doesn't necessarily mean this translates to what happens when we eat 'food'. A study I recently saw used fat boluses to show the effect of fat per se on insulin sensitivity reduction (in insulin sensitive subjects). Glycaemia wasn't affected in this study but that makes sense given no glucose was administered and we have non insulin dependent glucose transporters. This potential blunting of the body's response to insulin has also been shown using mixed meals with the effect increasing as the fat % of the meal is increased showing it occurred in the presence of glucose. I doubt the insulin blunting effect would outweigh the reduction in blood sugar seen from a concomitant reduction in dietary carbohydrate and or in those in a IR state. But the fact fat may impact insulin sensitivity/glucose metabolism is food for thought and I'd love to see more research in this area. Most studies suggest SFA exert a greater blunting of the body's ability to respond to insulin than PUFA/MUFA but this isn't conclusive. Some studies suggest it is the amount of fat rather than particular fat type.
     
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  5. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    Ask a few carnivores it they agree with that statement.. I think you'd find that most have not found that to be correct in the slightest. Me included.
     
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  6. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Again - the relationship of dietary fat on insulin resistance is in relation to carbohydrate and glucose.

    What is dangerous is high fat in the context of high carbs. ie our modern food environment.

     
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  7. Sean_Raymond

    Sean_Raymond HCP · Well-Known Member

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    Fat has been shown to cause insulin resistant effects when given on its own so the potential exists. Adding carbohydrate to the mix may then highlight that effect. I personally do not hold to the idea that carbohydrate in a complex form are bad as such but with a condition like type 2 diabetes where glucose metabolism is impaired then reducing carbohydrate is a common sense approach. This will help cope with the condition better and low carbohydrate diets may help lose weight via a calorie deficit which can help improve the condition (possibly reverse it). The weight loss evoked by low carbohydrate in turn improves blood sugars and may offset potential increases in LDL cholesterol caused by any increases in dietary saturated fat. Whether high levels of LDL are an issue for health is still a hot debate.
     
  8. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    May I ask what kind of HCP are you and roughly how old?
    You seem to hold some relatively outdated beliefs.
     
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  9. Sean_Raymond

    Sean_Raymond HCP · Well-Known Member

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    Outdated in what way.
     
  10. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    CICO and saturated fat to name two..
    Neatly sidestepped by the way.
     
  11. Sean_Raymond

    Sean_Raymond HCP · Well-Known Member

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    This is one of the fascinating but frustrating things with nutrition, the individualised responses to diet - one size doesn't fit all. As I said, studies are conflicting as to whether it is the type of fat or amount that confers the greater insulin resistant effect. It'd be interesting to know what experiments were done by the people you refer to however not eating carbohydrate would mean I wouldn't be surprised little or no effect may be seen.
     
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  12. Sean_Raymond

    Sean_Raymond HCP · Well-Known Member

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    Peoples response to diet vary, as will the effect of saturated fat on LDL. Other factors always need to be considered when looking at the effect of diet, losing weight can have positive effects on blood lipids which may offset changes caused by a diet for example. Broadly speaking saturated fat will raise LDL. Many hold to ratios being more important than levels of anyone cholesterol marker and the topic is indeed complicated. Whether raised LDL increases heart disease is an ongoing debate. Calories in calories out is simplistic and doesn't cover the entire picture but I believe it better explains weight loss than any Insulin model.
     
  13. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    Odd then that every other animal (and we are but one subset) seems to be ok eating their ancestral diet.
    Only humans appear to have this need for individualised responses.
    Tell that to a lion or a hippo.. ?
     
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  14. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    Maybe read some Bikman then.. I've just started his "Why we get sick" .
     
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  15. Resurgam

    Resurgam Type 2 (in remission!) · Expert

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    Strange that Dr Atkins used to use a fat fast to break resistance to ketosis - it shouldn't work if fat causes insulin resistance.
    My meter tells me that carbs are bad - complex carbs are easy to break down and the process starts in the mouth, so I don't eat them.
    My mathematical ability tells me that I lose weight when eating low carb, but it isn't due to calorie deficit - I can lose weight eating normal calories on low carb, but 800 calories from high carb food and I didn't lose anything other than consciousness at fairly regular intervals, so I don't do low calorie diets any more.
    Weightloss is the result of improved, lower, blood glucose, not the cause of it, by the way.
    Are you sure that saturated fat increases LDL? Increasing fat lowered mine.
     
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  16. Sean_Raymond

    Sean_Raymond HCP · Well-Known Member

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    You seem hostile for some reason. In any case, what do you think an 'ancestral' diet is? And would this ancestral diet be key to health and tolerated by all?
     
  17. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    There are studies that show this happens without a calorie deficit just the carb reduction. I’ve posted them before. I’ll try and find them again.

    possibly these might answer some of the points. Not sure if the one I’m thinking of specifically is there
    https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/th...-treating-diabetes.178134/page-8#post-2337293
     
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  18. Sean_Raymond

    Sean_Raymond HCP · Well-Known Member

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    I have seen a few interviews with him. I still do not believe insulin is the reason people get fat. Do you have any studies supporting this idea? We might go off topic here so I am happy to start a new thread if the mods would prefer this.
     
  19. Sean_Raymond

    Sean_Raymond HCP · Well-Known Member

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    Well done on finding something that works for you. I never said fat causes insulin resistance but that fat has been shown to blunt the bodies response to insulin - an acute insulin resistant effect. I cannot speak for your experience but insulin itself isn't the cause of weight gain/adiposity and reducing its levels per se will not be the reason a person loses weight.
     
  20. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    His book has over 30 pages of references..
     
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