A Burden on the NHS - Type 2's

[elaine77]

Hi all, interesting thread!

I don't play the blame game but I think it's a fair comment to say that most obese/overweight people are not type 2 diabetic but most type 2 diabetics are overweight/obese.... This is factual information and so I do feel it cant be completely disregarded but there is obviously a genetic predisposition as well which cannot be ignored either.

I agree with the comments about the food/drink available being the cause because since I was diagnosed EVERY time I go out with friends etc... I ask in bars 'do you have any sugar free energy drink? Do you have any sugar free mixers at all?' And there is only ever diet coke! Nothing else! They taste almost exactly the same so why isn't everywhere FORCED to stock the sugar free stuff so you have to OPT IN to the sugary stuff? Everyone would be so much healthier if changes like this were incorporated! I honestly think this is the best way forward, to offer better alternatives as the standard so you need to opt in to the sugary/unhealthy stuff.

It's a constant struggle for me to find good meals on the go that keep my BS in check and with everyone being so busy these days it's no wonder diabetes is on the rise... Maybe a predisposition has always been there for a lot of people, I for one have no family members at all with diabetes though mine is autoimmune so I guess that's different...

One thing I will say though is I don't agree that low fat is a good diet for diabetics, I agree with the research that shows fat is better than carb as it is natural.. I am currently high fat and low GI carb and its probably the healthiest diet I've ever had..... That being said I am not overweight and so diet recommendations are probably different for people who need to lose weight....


Diagnosed with GD in 2010, Completely disappeared postpartum. Re-diagnosed December 2012 with type 1.5 diabetes, age 26, BMI 23 currently controlled by only Metformin, 500mg twice a day.

 

[jake60]

I think everyone should reflect for a moment on reality.
Forget the presstitutes and politicians.
Reality.
In the world of reality the NHS is actually owned by me and you ... it's ours.
We supplied not only the money but the labour too.
That's not some fancy theory it's a fact.
It's a fact that politicians and fat cats like to blur to the point of well hidden if possible.
I can't find the links just now but the American system is way down the list of countries with decent health care yet the politicians are hell bent on taking my NHS and your NHS and replacing it with an inferior one that looks after share holders first.

Here's another fact that they like to bury ... bankers and fat cat billionaires are a drain on society.
It's a fact. They receive endless benefits.
The minimum wage is a benefit first and foremost to the corporations who can continue to pay **** wages because governments step in and top them up ... tax credits do the same. Instead of the company forking out the tax payer forks out.
It's socialism for the corporations and capitalism for the peasants.

 

[jake60]

Anyone watched the Ken Loach film Spirit of 45?
Well worth watching heres a clip ...
[youtube]_-rkPCBCcQc[/youtube]

 

[paul-1976]

I think everyone should reflect for a moment on reality.
Forget the presstitutes and politicians.
Reality.
In the world of reality the NHS is actually owned by me and you ... it's ours.
We supplied not only the money but the labour too.
That's not some fancy theory it's a fact.
It's a fact that politicians and fat cats like to blur to the point of well hidden if possible.
I can't find the links just now but the American system is way down the list of countries with decent health care yet the politicians are hell bent on taking my NHS and your NHS and replacing it with an inferior one that looks after share holders first.

Here's another fact that they like to bury ... bankers and fat cat billionaires are a drain on society.
It's a fact. They receive endless benefits.
The minimum wage is a benefit first and foremost to the corporations who can continue to pay **** wages because governments step in and top them up ... tax credits do the same. Instead of the company forking out the tax payer forks out.
It's socialism for the corporations and capitalism for the peasants.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the box and I had to read your post a few times over but you have hit the nail on the head there! :thumbup:

 

[jake60]

I think everyone should reflect for a moment on reality.
Forget the presstitutes and politicians.
Reality.
In the world of reality the NHS is actually owned by me and you ... it's ours.
We supplied not only the money but the labour too.
That's not some fancy theory it's a fact.
It's a fact that politicians and fat cats like to blur to the point of well hidden if possible.
I can't find the links just now but the American system is way down the list of countries with decent health care yet the politicians are hell bent on taking my NHS and your NHS and replacing it with an inferior one that looks after share holders first.

Here's another fact that they like to bury ... bankers and fat cat billionaires are a drain on society.
It's a fact. They receive endless benefits.
The minimum wage is a benefit first and foremost to the corporations who can continue to pay **** wages because governments step in and top them up ... tax credits do the same. Instead of the company forking out the tax payer forks out.
It's socialism for the corporations and capitalism for the peasants.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the box and I had to read your post a few times over but you have hit the nail on the head there! :thumbup:

Thanks Paul and I have to admit I aint the best at explaining in print my point!
Face to face in a conversation I could make it a bit easier ... so I'm told 8)

 

[LittleWolf]

Ok there is definitely a genetic predisposition but diet and weight are a big factor in it. Not all T2s are obese (like myself!) so no one can say obesity causes diabetes. So we come to the conclusion that insulin resistance and diabetes must cause someone to gain weight. What about people who have been insulin resistant and remain skinny all their life? So we can't blame obesity on that exclusively either.. (I know other things like thyroid issues cause weight problems),

So if diabetes doesn't automatically mean you become obese, and obesity doesn't mean you become diabetic but exacerbates it and obese diabetics can achieve normal glucose levels by becoming normal weight, it stand to reason that people think those obese diabetics are obliged to lose the weight (as many of you are doing) I had to say I cringed watching a morbidly obese man being carted across the country in an ambulance to see a dietician only to insist he was on the diet she put him on (which he wasn't, and was not losing a lb) then be carted home again etc Thats an extreme I know and all I us are entitled to fair treatment.

And for us skinny people I'm sure our diets had something to do with it.

I've been underweight for most of my life, but I believe my poor eating (eating disorder) is the reason that whatever genetic predisposition I might have has been triggered. Unfortunately, as like 2% of people with Prediabetes are undiagnosed, I never thought I was at risk and ate terribly starving myself then loading up with sugar. Had I understood that MY ACTIONS and what I ate could simply reverse that state, maybe I wouldn't be where I am now

Genetics or not, skinny or not, it's my fault, I think the vast majority of us had ****** western diets before diagnosis.

Of course like the lung cancer patient who never smoked in their life, there are always exceptions like Steve Redgrave who have done everything right and still get it, but I think the vast majority of us have got some part to blame in it and there is always more we can do to make ourselves less of a nuisance, skinny or fat. I've heard many T2s say they are fat and like their carbs and outright say the reason is they are lazy and don't want to give the carbs up.

Even T1s can stubbornly not manage their diabetes

We've all got to self manage..

Aren't brittle diabetics the only totally blameless ones? If there is such a thing

Then again all of us are a 'burden' to the NHS one way or another

Though I think the biggest are DRUNK PEOPLE filling up A and E every single Friday and Saturday night, getting into fights or having accidents etc


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[elaine77]

Isn't Steve Redgrave Autoimmune? In which case it wouldn't matter a ****** what he did! Oh the feeling of helplessness overwhelms me! Can you tell I'm hating my disease at the moment as I have my first All Inclusive hol next week which is also my first hol as diabetic :'( could actually cry... Might do!

And I would also defo say autoimmune diabetics are completely blameless...absolutely nothing they consciously did can have caused the autoimmune response that kills the cells...


Diagnosed with GD in 2010, Completely disappeared postpartum. Re-diagnosed December 2012 with type 1.5 diabetes, age 26, BMI 23 currently controlled by only Metformin, 500mg twice a day.

 

[mo1905]

Think Steve Redgrave is T2 but on insulin ?


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[Cupcaake32]

Yup he is type 2 he will be using a medtronic pump to deliver insulin on a bike trip i have been researching pumps for 2 years i really hope i get a yes on 11th x

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[catherinecherub]

Sir Steve Redgrave was 35 when he was diagnosed with TYPE 2 diabetes.
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Diabetes-t ... grave.aspx

 

[elaine77]

Hmm if u research it there are conflicting opinions on that and some articles even say he was only diagnosed type 2 due to his age. I think he probably is a misdiagnosis but because he takes insulin anyway there's no need to look into it further. Just my opinion though.


Diagnosed with GD in 2010, Completely disappeared postpartum. Re-diagnosed December 2012 with type 1.5 diabetes, age 26, BMI 23 currently controlled by only Metformin, 500mg twice a day.

 

[phoenix]

I agree that on the face of it Steve Redgrave seems more like a LADA but he didn't have any antibodies. He had needed prednisolone for colitis and had a history of steroid induced diabetes which had resolved.
This is from a paper written by Ian Gallen , Anne and Steve Redgrave recounting his diagnosis and treatment.
http://www.clinmed.rcpjournal.org/conte ... l.pdf+html

At presentation, he gave a past medical history of intermittent ulcerative colitis diagnosed in 1992, which was then under good control, and of appendicectomy in April 1997. He had required insulin (20–30 units per day) for prednisolone-induced diabetes during treatment for previous exacerbation of colitis. He weighed 105 kg and on examination was a very fit man. He had no diabetic complications (specifically no evidence of peripheral vascular disease) and normal peripheral sensation, power, tone and reflexes.The random blood glucose was 25 mmol/l associated with moderate ketonuria, but no proteinuria.The results of investigation suggested a diagnosis of type 2 diabetes with a negative islet cell antibody titre and detectable C-peptide.

He certainly didn't have T1a (autoimmune) Since he had ketones and required insulin, it's possible that doctors in some parts of the world would have stuck him in the T1b (idiopathic) box; I know of a few people who have been put in this box (not in the UK) . The Type 2 box is a big box and as I've said before is probably a ragbag of different conditions.

There are probably many different causes of this form of diabetes. Although the specific etiologies are not known, autoimmune destruction of β-cells does not occur, and patients do not have any of the other causes of diabetes listed above or below

. (above is T1, below all those like MODY, drug induced, trauma induced etc ie known causes)
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/conten ... 1/S62.full

 

[elaine77]

Doesn't look like they did a GAD on him then? I'm islet cell antibody negative and I have detectable insulin.....but I am autoimmune. As the treatment is the same for him chances are they're just not bothered about a fully diagnosis... Happens too often I think nd I'm sure it has a negative impact upon research and statistics all these misdiagnoses.


Diagnosed with GD in 2010, Completely disappeared postpartum. Re-diagnosed December 2012 with type 1.5 diabetes, age 26, BMI 23 currently controlled by only Metformin, 500mg twice a day.

 

[phoenix]

Elaine, I agree that he may not have had anti GAD tests. Personally, I also think that the prednisolone may have been a factor. However, Drs Redgrave and Gallen(a diabetologist) + Steve Redgrave himself write that he had T2.

What is I think most pertinent is that people diagnosed with T2 may have the condition for a variety of reasons. Labelling people as blameless seems to suggest that those without an autoimnnune condition or other known cause may have some blame for their diabetes. I don't think this is necessarily true .

 

[Luna21]

I have an auto-immune arthritis, then developed thyroid troubles, then Diabetes, although my diet was pretty healthy and I wasn't overweight by that much. I am now too thin according to my family as I've lost weight due to cutting down on carbs. :roll:

I honestly believe that my type 2 diabetes is due to other underlying conditions I have, and the medications I am on for those conditions have probably played a part in why I have developed this disease. I have been on strong steroids in the past too.

Yes, I have changed my diet, but I honestly don't believe that I am at 'blame' for getting diabetes. It's like telling a woman who gets breast cancer, or a man who gets prostate cancer, that it's her/his fault - now that wouldn't go down well with the general public would it? Of course not - they are not to blame, and many diabetics are not to blame either.

However I have only ever had the normal fasting test done, as apparently other tests can only be authorised by an endocrinologist.

Now my thyroid tablets aren't working properly and my new doc, a Canadian, believes my auto-immune condition is causing the meds to be less effective, but again, other tests can't be carried out unless you see a specialist.

That's what annoys me - that testing is so basic here, and doctors are unable to fund better, thorough, testing due to budgetary constraints.
Probably because of this, many people don't have the full information about their condition, and no-one seems to be doing that much research into auto-immune diabetes.

It's a case of you have been diagnosed with it - it's your fault due to poor diet/weight/lack of exercise, take your pick - you will inevitably get worse, here's a sheet of (useless) information, off you go and we'll see you in 6 months or a years time!

I don't think the reporting in the press helps either. Of course it's very true that some people will be predisposing themselves to getting diabetes with eating too much sugar or carbs and generally leading an unhealthy lifestyle, but not all diabetes are in this category. How is that some thin, fit healthy people get it and other overweight, unfit people don't?

How is it that my Father in law who is 84, is very slim, and very fit for a man his age, and has always led a very active life has got diabetes, and yet my Mother in law who is grossly obese, has never, ever done any kind of exercise and spends most days watching TV, eats badly and yet has never developed the disease? There has to be more to diabetes than current thinking surely?

 

[desidiabulum]

Would it not be more helpful to talk about diabetes (as some specialists do) as a syndrome (with a huge number of possible causes), rather than a disease as such? Characterizing it as a disease is what generates the assumption that it must have a straightforward cause and only 1 or 2 types, that it is necessarily progressive, and the endless debates about whether it can be ‘cured’. ‘Metabolic disorder’, ‘health condition’ – there are various alternatives...

 

[Luna21]

Would it not be more helpful to talk about diabetes (as some specialists do) as a syndrome (with a huge number of possible causes), rather than a disease as such? Characterizing it as a disease is what generates the assumption that it must have a straightforward cause and only 1 or 2 types, that it is necessarily progressive, and the endless debates about whether it can be ‘cured’. ‘Metabolic disorder’, ‘health condition’ – there are various alternatives...

Now that would make good sense. :clap:

 

[catherinecherub]

Reading posts on here and researching articles, I have always thought that, given time, there will be sub groups within the remit of Type 2.

This article makes a lot of sense to me.


"It is widely appreciated that Type2 is not a uniform disease entity with a definable cause, mechanism and treatment......."

The term Type2 is leading medical researchers astray and resulting in sub=optimal treatment for patients........."

Does Type2 Diabetes really Exist?
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/261307.php

Blaming people for being diagnosed with Type 2 is a pointless exercise.

II you haven't read this thread about the blame game, please do so. You will see there are some confrontational posts but it might help you get to grips with things if you are feeling down about your diagnosis and blaming yourself.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=21894

 

[hanadr]

I get cross too. I cost less than many people. Haven't been in hospital, except to visit "cheaper" friends and family for 10 years. Get 2 check ups and sets of blood tests a year and pay for my own strips. I'm not obese and treat sore throats and colds with lemon juice.
Hana
PS my T1 husband has multiple complications and costs quite a lot. But the T1s are not responsible for their condition :?

 

[elaine77]

I don't think it's a case of what costs what, i think it's a case of whether their needs to be a cost or not....

Type 1s may well cost more but their condition is BEYOND their control in that they do not produce enough, if any, insulin and so therefore need to administer it, monitor it, be prescribed it etc etc... The majority of type 2s can (and many do) control their condition by diet and exercise alone.

At least it is POSSIBLE to control type 2 diabetes without a huge input from the NHS, that's not the case with type 1 and so yes, I stick by my opinion that type 1s hold no responsibility over the cause of their disease. Don't get me wrong, with diet and exercise they can control their disease BETTER and therefore need to administer less insulin but some insulin will still need to be administered regardless and hypos will always be an issue regardless.... The same can't be said with type 2 diabetes in the majority of cases...

Of course type 2 diabetes that has progressed to the stage of beta cell death by exhaustion leading to a need for insulin to be administered falls into this same category but then again...it does need to be questioned whether type 2 diabetes naturally progresses to that or whether its due to a lack of good control over the years... The jury is out on that one I think, I certainly don't know the answer.


Diagnosed with GD in 2010, Completely disappeared postpartum. Re-diagnosed December 2012 with type 1.5 diabetes, age 26, BMI 23 currently controlled by only Metformin, 500mg twice a day.