A Burden on the NHS - Type 2's

[Scardoc]

In my eyes, no individual is a burden to the NHS, unless they are in this Country illegally or have never contributed taxes.

If you're a smoker, it's not illegal and you're funding the Government.
If you're a drinker, it's not illegal and you're funding the Government.
If you're obese as a result of eating a terrible diet and taking no exercise, it's not illegal and you're funding the Government.
If you've been in this Country, legally, even for two weeks, and need medical attention, the Government has allowed you to be here and has a duty of care.

If you shouldn't be here or if you've never paid a penny tax then you are a burden.

By definition, a burden is something that causes worry, hardship or distress. When the Government/NHS crunch the numbers and see how much they have spent on diabetes (all types), and forecast how much they will have to continue spending, then they are quite correct to say that it is a burden. If left unchecked, it will cause hardship and distress to the entire country. It's how this is conveyed to the nation that causes all of the problems.

Where I think people go wrong with the obesity & T2 debate is that they interpret what the media and Government is saying wrongly. They don't come out and say that T2 diabetes is caused by obesity and if you get fat you will be T2. What they say is that being overweight, having a certain size waist or being obese greatly increases your chances of developing T2 diabetes and that there is a "strong link". Just as smoking greatly increases your chances of lung cancer and drinking greatly increases you chances of liver failure. The studies and stats back these claims up and, although they don't apply to each and every individual, when you have the weight of numbers to suggest something, you will act upon it. If 80% of T2's were underweight at the time of diagnosis (as opposed to overweight) then we would be getting told that being underweight was a major risk factor in developing T2. That would be the risk factor.

Where we are all dependent is on the Government giving us the correct advice and publishing the correct guidelines. I have enormous respect for people on this forum who have educated themselves and it's a shame that you have to do so. Unfortunately, I think we live in a country where the Government and the NHS are just too damned scared to give the wrong advice or to upset the wrong people (major food corps). I also think we are verging on being on a country that is too scared to upset people by saying that your lifestyle has brought on complications.

I am not saying this about T2 specifically!!!!!!!!

However, we shouldn't bury our head in the sand and look for a reason behind everything that absolves people of blame. Sometimes it is really as simple as living a sedentary lifestyle and eating too much of the wrong thing.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

It is a re-herring to deflect blame to the victim once again :twisted:

First things first Lucy, do you think of yourself as a victim? I hope you dont and I certainly dont think of myself as a victim. If you think of yourself as a victim it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy and you start acting like a victim. Dont be a victim, ever :thumbup:

OK now for some facts:

Obesity does not cause diabetes.
Eating sugar does not cause diabetes.
80% (roughly) of newly diagnosed diabetics are overweight.
20% (roughly) of newly diagnosed diabetics are not overweight.
Only 20% (roughly) of obese people will develop diabetes.
Diabetes is on the increase, costs rise in line with that increase.

Only very stupid people who do not know the facts will blame diabetics for their condition, do I care about these stupid people? :lol: Of course not, life is for living, so live it :thumbup:

 

[Grazer]

Where I think people go wrong with the obesity & T2 debate is that they interpret what the media and Government is saying wrongly. They don't come out and say that T2 diabetes is caused by obesity and if you get fat you will be T2. What they say is that being overweight, having a certain size waist or being obese greatly increases your chances of developing T2 diabetes and that there is a "strong link". Just as smoking greatly increases your chances of lung cancer and drinking greatly increases you chances of liver failure. The studies and stats back these claims up and, although they don't apply to each and every individual, when you have the weight of numbers to suggest something, you will act upon it. If 80% of T2's were underweight at the time of diagnosis (as opposed to overweight) then we would be getting told that being underweight was a major risk factor in developing T2. That would be the risk factor.

I think the 80% bit tends to make things sound too definitive; "80% is a large number and thus proves T2 is caused by this" goes the thinking (not saying that's your thinking)
although 80% of diabetics are overweight or obese, over 50% of the GENERAL POPULATION are overweight or obese. In the states i think it's 60%? What I'm saying is that if the stats were "80% of the general population are overweight and 80% of T2s are overweight, then we would just be saying that a normal percentage get T2 and weight doesn't come into it. As it is, we're saying only (maybe) 60% are overweight and 80% of T2s are, but the difference isn't that great as it may sound by just saying "80% of diabetics are overweight"
We do know that being overweight increases insulin resistance, which is why overweight T2s try to lose weight. So overweight in a T2 increases BGs. We all agree on that too. So it could be that T2 is purely hereditary and we develop it regardless of weight, it's just that it shows more readily with higher BGs if you're overweight, and develops more quickly as the higher BGs drive the pancreas harder. This theory would say it doesn't CAUSE diabetes, it's NOT our fault, but it shows quicker and develops quicker. This would also explain why 80% of the overweight/obese aren't diabetic!
Just a thought, as someone who wasn't even overweight at diagnosis.
Might post this as a separate thread for thought.

 

[Anonymous]

Only very stupid people who do not know the facts will blame diabetics for their condition, do I care about these stupid people? :lol: Of course not, life is for living, so live it :thumbup:

Hard not to care when that person is wearing a uniform, handing you a leaflet, advising you about your diet and restricting your access to test strips, blood tests though. Remember that you're not their only patient and that attitude and advice will affect others who may well be more vulnerable than you.

 

[ELSDON]

Hi
Having come on this forum to seek information on blood sugar levels - and having seen your very sensible and sensitive post, I could not let it go without commenting - perhaps it will help others.

I agree that the problem in this country is a lack of advice when you need it.
Another problem is the food business.
Elephants exist and grow their very healthy skeletons on a low fat starch based diet. They do not have diabetes.
Plants contain enough vitamins and minerals (from the ground) and enzymes to support our much smaller frame.
Asians and other oriental races who exist on a LOW FAT PLANT BASED DIET are not fat.
Meat fish and eggs contain cholestrol and saturated fat. Starch does not contain cholestrol.
Meat also contains additives such as hormones.
Milk and cheeses contain cholestrol and saturated fat.
The importance of keeping the bloodstream clear of fat and sugar is paramount.
Our ancestors did not live on processed foods. Their bones were healthy.
Our rich diet is giving us diabetes.

I am eating bread, vegetables, potatoes.

I hope that this helps people
I am not giving advice - I am not qualified to
Elsdon
I do not have diabetes but I believe that I was pre-diabetic

 

[Grazer]

I am eating bread, vegetables, potatoes.

I hope that this helps people

Not sure it will help many diabetics on diet control only! You may note that although the Asians you mention may not be fat, they have a higher incidence of diabetes than others.

 

[Paul1976]

I am eating bread, vegetables, potatoes.

I hope that this helps people

Not sure it will help many diabetics on diet control only! You may note that although the Asians you mention may not be fat, they have a higher incidence of diabetes than others.

Very true and Asians tend to develop DM earlier in life compared to individuals in the western world,A diet rich in Bread,vegetables and potatoes would be no good for me personally either and I wouldn't want to take more meds personally just so I could eat 300grams of carbs a day like my nurse tells me being a man of 6ft1",should be eating.

 

[borofergie]

Elephants exist and grow their very healthy skeletons on a low fat starch based diet. They do not have diabetes.

Unfortunately most of it gets converted into fat by bacteria in their gut. They don't actually digest many carbohydrates.

Plants contain enough vitamins and minerals (from the ground) and enzymes to support our much smaller frame.

Not that much in the way of quality protein though...

Our ancestors did not live on processed foods. Their bones were healthy.

Yes, but they did eat a largely meat based diet.

I am eating bread, vegetables, potatoes.

So carbs, veg and carbs.

I do not have diabetes but I believe that I was pre-diabetic

Keep eating the bread and the starch and you'll get there soon enough...

 

[borofergie]

I often wonder who the NHS is actually for?

If you are unfortunate enough to have a heart-attack or a stroke or cancer then you'll find out.

 

[Scardoc]

Grazer -"But although 80% of "overweight or obese people" may become T2, over 50% of the GENERAL POPULATION are overweight or obese."

Grazer, you kinda lost me with your post The stat they roll out is that 80% of T2's are overweight at the time of diagnosis. So, they're not talking about the general public, they're talking specifically about T2's. So, yes, the figure does sound definitive and that's the whole point. That's why they say that being obese is such a risk factor. Being a risk factor certainly doesn't make it a cause and it may be that it exacerbates an existing condition.

Imagine your on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire and Tarrant asks you: what is the cause of T2 diabetes? a) Genetics b) Bread and starch c) obesity d) no one knows. Your stuck and ask the audience who say: a) 5% b) 5% c) 80% d) 10%. You're gonna go with the 80%, it's human nature. What if the audience says: a) 25% b) 25% c) 25% d) 25%? You're no better off and have to go with the one you find most likely or accept it could be a combination.

Elsdon - "Elephants exist and grow their very healthy skeletons on a low fat starch based diet. They do not have diabetes.
Plants contain enough vitamins and minerals (from the ground) and enzymes to support our much smaller frame."

Elephants have evolved to do so. The only animals I know of that have been diagnosed with diabetes are pets. Could this be because us humans are tampering with their diets and feeding them **** they have not evolved to eat? And due to the fact that some people don't exercise their pets? In much the same way as we tamper with our own diet and don't exercise ourselves?

 

[lucylocket61]

When I use the term "Victim" this is what I mean:

If i get mugged, I am a victim of crime

If i get raped, i am a victim of crime

If I get told by my doctor to smoke as it is good for my nerves, then I get lung cancer - I am a victim of bad advice

If i get told by my doctor to take valium for my depression and i get hooked on it - I am a victim of bad advice

if I get told by my HCP's and the NHS that I must keep my carb intake at 50% of my food intake, and my diabetes gets worse, and I lose my eyesight - I am a victim of bad advice.

All the same us of terminology, as far as I am concerned.

I do not see victims as being weak, sad, helpless, self-pitying, blaming others for their situation, or anything else derogatory or negative. Most are strong people who have been dealt with bad things to come to terms with.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

When I use the term "Victim" this is what I mean:

If i get mugged, I am a victim of crime

If i get raped, i am a victim of crime

What you call being a victim I call being unlucky.

If i get mugged, I am very very unlucky
If i get raped, i am very very very unlucky

When I developed diabetes I was very very very very unlucky, as fewer than 4% of the population are diabetic.

All I was saying Lucy is dont be a victim, you say it just a phrase a tag a word but its not, being a victim is a state of mind and you dont want to be there. Own your life and own your diabetes

 

[lucylocket61]

How the hell would you know what I do or do not know about being a victim or my understanding of the use of the word?

If you wish to use the term "unlucky" fair enough.

I dont.

 

[Scardoc]

Definitions of victim (OED)

a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action
a person who has come to feel helpless and passive in the face of misfortune or ill-treatment:
a living creature killed as a religious sacrifice

If you feel harmed as a result of the bad advice you have been given then yes, you are a victim. I think what Mr Bonkers was trying to say is that it's easy to feel a victim of a condition like diabetes and that it rarely benefits anyone to feel that way.

I could be wrong Mr Bonkers, but I feel Lucylocket is not saying she is a victim of her diabetes, but a victim of poor treatment and advice.

Lucylocket - "I do not see victims as being weak, sad, helpless, self-pitying, blaming others for their situation, or anything else derogatory or negative. Most are strong people who have been dealt with bad things to come to terms with"

I agree with this but don't like seeing examples such as rape used to prove a point. There's few things more degrading and displaying such an abuse of power than that. Diabetes is bad but I'd take it before seeing anyone raped.

So, play nicely people. We're all unlucky victims here

 

[Grazer]

Scardoc, not surprised I lost you! I was in a rush and stated my facts 180% round the wrong way! Knew what I meant, and forgot to say it! Even worse, I copied and pasted to another thread. I've edited it now to say what I intended, but here is the offending edited paragraph
"But although 80% of diabetics are overweight or obese, over 50% of the GENERAL POPULATION are overweight or obese. In the states i think it's 60%? What I'm saying is that if the stats were "80% of the general population are overweight and 80% of T2s are overweight, then we would just be saying that a normal percentage get T2 and weight doesn't come into it. As it is, we're saying only (maybe) 60% are overweight and 80% of T2s are, but the difference isn't that great as it may sound by just saying "80% of diabetics are overweight"

Still may not be completely correct statistically, but hopefully you get my drift!

 

[Unbeliever]

I often wonder who the NHS is actually for?

If you are unfortunate enough to have a heart-attack or a stroke or cancer then you'll find out.

I will still be told its my fault. I am T2 diabetic and so will have caused my own diabetes which has caused the stroke or hear attack. if my cancer is breast or bowel or anything which can be comnnected with obesity [and i have never beenobese but as a diabetic i must have been } then that is likely to have been my own fault too. Next month I shall be 65. What will be the point of wasing NHS money on someone of that age even their disease might not have been self-inflicted? And that was my point.

I was not atacking the NHS but public perceptions of which patients "deserve " treatment.

 

[Unbeliever]

I think the 80% bit tends to make things sound too definitive; "80% is a large number and thus proves T2 is caused by this" goes the thinking (not saying that's your thinking)
although 80% of diabetics are overweight or obese, over 50% of the GENERAL POPULATION are overweight or obese. In the states i think it's 60%? What I'm saying is that if the stats were "80% of the general population are overweight and 80% of T2s are overweight, then we would just be saying that a normal percentage get T2 and weight doesn't come into it. As it is, we're saying only (maybe) 60% are overweight and 80% of T2s are, but the difference isn't that great as it may sound by just saying "80% of diabetics are overweight"
We do know that being overweight increases insulin resistance, which is why overweight T2s try to lose weight. So overweight in a T2 increases BGs. We all agree on that too. So it could be that T2 is purely hereditary and we develop it regardless of weight, it's just that it shows more readily with higher BGs if you're overweight, and develops more quickly as the higher BGs drive the pancreas harder. This theory would say it doesn't CAUSE diabetes, it's NOT our fault, but it shows quicker and develops quicker. This would also explain why 80% of the overweight/obese aren't diabetic!
Just a thought, as someone who wasn't even overweight at diagnosis.

Totally agree with his Grazer. Its very diffficult to expree though. I have always thought that this must be the case but have never seen it put into words before although i think I tried it once. It eplains the apparent "epidemic " of T2 and whuy more people are diagnosed T2 and at younger ages. if we were living in a sociey where food was in short supply the genetic disposition or the natural decline of the pancreas would not take effect until much later or maybe would never be diagnosed because he decline would be hardly noticeable. That is why T" used to be classed as a disease of the elderly
It is the only logical explanation. Unfortunatelyy we are a society in too much of a hurry to read beyond the headlines.

Might post this as a separate thread for thought.[/quote]

 

[zolabud]

I have just read through this very interesting thread and had to comment.

My best friend said to me this morning. "Well,if you hadn't put on so much weight you wouldn't have Type 2 Diabetes".

I tried to explain a few facts I have learned recently but he wasn't having any of it.

It doesn't help that in my doctors surgery there is a poster saying if you waist measures such and such for a woman and such and such for a man you are at risk of getting diabetes.

Surely information like this is wrong... Especially in a medical establishment?

 

[kimbb]

well in all honesty i don't see it that way. I just think that the officials who make all the soundbites have a very bad grasp of english and how to express them selves effectively.
Diabetes is a problem that is rising, it does indeed put additional pressure on a hard pressed service on a financial basis. that is why there needs to be a focus on educating people to help them selves so that a bigger rise can be avoided. that is only logical. the fact is we can blame the government for not doing this or that, but at the end of the day we all know eating the wrong things/ too much smoking drinking etc are not good for us and have consequences we have to take control of those things our selves. the government can not and does not have the right to take those things away from us we would moan too much about a nanny state etc etc.
we are lucky to have a free healthcare system its our responsibility as a nation not to abuse it by abusing our selves. I accept there are conditions such as ours that are often unavoidable but at the end of the day the national insurance contribution we make is small the percentage that the nhs gets is even smaller. i am grateful i dont live in usa and have to buy all my equipment and medication, find health insurance pay to see doctors. because looking on line at the costs of all the 33 years contributions even if the nhs got all of that would cover about a year and a half of doctors, consultants fees various other specialists, blood tests eye tests and all the medication and equipment you get given to take care of your self. all for free? we dont know we have been born really.

on a different level i can assure you the nurses and specialists dont see diabetics as a burden they genuinely care, go home worrying about all the people they see and want the best for us all, they may get frustrated with us when they can see we are not listening to good advice given for our own interests but don't we all? how do i know this? i work with district nurses. we care passionately about what we do.

regardless of my job i think that our sense of expectation and entitlement has become twisted.

 

[hornplayer]

[quote="zolabud"

My best friend said to me this morning. "Well,if you hadn't put on so much weight you wouldn't have Type 2 Diabetes".

I tried to explain a few facts I have learned recently but he wasn't having any of it.

[/quote]

- this would be your EX best friend, right???


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App