Covid/Coronavirus and diabetes - the numbers

Brunneria said:

What makes you think that people have suddenly stopped questioning?
I question every stat, every day.
So do many others on here.

The more I look at them, the more obvious the unreliabilities become. Different death cert conventions, political pressures, admin systems and things being recorded. The disparities are enormous.

I have no issue with discussing them (along with their failings), but I question taking them at face value, when they just happen to fit a theory. That is how Fat Hypotheses and houses of cards are built.

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Ok here's some data from Sweden.

https://twitter.com/HaraldofW/status/1270080247724216330

HSSS said:

Doesn’t mean it applies to everything.

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Maybe it should though?

Maybe we should do more research and look for alternative views rather than simply believing what we hear from the BBC every day?

lindisfel said:

but respond with cherry picking more 'facts'

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I'd suggest that both sides of the climate debate can be accused of that trait..?

Both your side and the "sceptics".

bulkbiker said:

Maybe it should though?

Maybe we should do more research and look for alternative views rather than simply believing what we hear from the BBC every day?

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Not what I meant. I meant just because we are right to disbelieve the mainstream about type 2 doesn’t mean everything we hear from the mainstream is wrong. But as you say doesn’t mean it’s right either. It’s perfectly possible to disbelieve BBC figures and claims and yet still not arrive where you have. I don’t think this is a simply a two sided coin.

bulkbiker said:

I'd suggest that both sides of the climate debate can be accused of that trait..?

Both your side and the "sceptics".

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That just shows how much you know about that discussion.

bulkbiker said:

Maybe it should though?

Maybe we should do more research and look for alternative views rather than simply believing what we hear from the BBC every day?

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I dont think those kind of insults require an answer.

bulkbiker said:

Ok here's some data from Sweden.

https://twitter.com/HaraldofW/status/1270080247724216330

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So what is it about that data that you think makes it interesting/important/fallible/accurate?

Brunneria said:

So what is it about that data that you think makes it interesting/important/fallible/accurate?

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Well that Sweden, who Dr Campbell claimed had got it so wrong, fairly obviously hasn't.. ?

From what I have read they are fairly meticulous in their reporting.

You also mentioned yesterday that " In fact, he comes very close to saying that the denial of oxygen, and the dispensing of a cocktail of 'end of life' drugs (which suppress the breathing, to allow a comfortable exit) is tantamount to euthanasia, on a large scale."

Which is of course exactly what is happening here in the UK where DNR orders are rampant in care homes (or so we have been told).

bulkbiker said:

Well that Sweden, who Dr Campbell claimed had got it so wrong, fairly obviously hasn't.. ?

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It's a good question and in the UK we should have many questions, especially the way numbers are no longer routinely reported. As for Sweden, big question mark. Googling "sweden covid 19 latest" will show several articles including articles suggesting that even the top Swedish Epidemiologist is now saying they didn't do it right and there are too many deaths. The BMJ have also printed an article about Sweden's response to Covid19. I get the impression that Dr Campbell was correct, but I can only go on the plethora of info that's available and I'm more concerned about the UK, or to be honest as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland seem to have a different view to England, I'm more worried about England, especially when it seems so difficult to get the truth out of the government.

Didn't want politics in it, but it's very much a political situation.

Just thinking, I haven't been to a castle for ages. Windsor is close!

I certainly do find myself wishing more and more for a I think you are full of it emoticon.

bulkbiker said:

Well that Sweden, who Dr Campbell claimed had got it so wrong, fairly obviously hasn't.. ?

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Really?
"Sweden now has the fifth-highest per capita death rate in the world with a larger death toll than all of its neighbours' combined."
https://www.businessinsider.com/swe...irus-strategy-of-no-lockdown-2020-7?r=US&IR=T

bulkbiker said:

, fairly obviously hasn't.. ?

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Hasn't what? Do you mean that Sweden 'hasn't got it wrong?'

If you cast your eyes back to the post I made yesterday (on a completely different thread from this one), with the Campbell video in it, you will see that I didn't actually make any comment as to whether Sweden had got anything 'right' or 'wrong'.
I expressed no opinion whatsoever in that particular post. Instead I gave a summary of some of what Campbell said in the video link (which you have quoted below).

I was posting the video in response to a query
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/th...normal-too-quickly.175148/page-8#post-2280643

bulkbiker said:

You also mentioned yesterday that " In fact, he comes very close to saying that the denial of oxygen, and the dispensing of a cocktail of 'end of life' drugs (which suppress the breathing, to allow a comfortable exit) is tantamount to euthanasia, on a large scale."

Which is of course exactly what is happening here in the UK where DNR orders are rampant in care homes (or so we have been told).

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What on earth makes you think that I am unaware of what has been going on in the UK?
And why do you think that is relevant to a discussion of drug use in Swedish care homes?
And why pull the UK into the discussion in an obvious attempt to discredit what I have posted about Sweden?
Please do not put words into my mouth, or misrepresent my posts in future.

Do I think Sweden have got it right? No
Do I think Sweden have got it wrong? No.
Do I think that every country is getting bits right, and bits wrong? Yes.
I am reserving judgement on everything (except the most ******** ******** that are obviously abuses of power on a megalomaniac scale) until we are at least a year further through this pandemic.

Your now insulting the health care workers in hospitals who put their lives on the line to save all patients, if possible.
Many of them, particularly bame, have died.
Cannot you differentiate between the two approaches?

bulkbiker said:

Well that Sweden, who Dr Campbell claimed had got it so wrong, fairly obviously hasn't.. ?

From what I have read they are fairly meticulous in their reporting.

You also mentioned yesterday that " In fact, he comes very close to saying that the denial of oxygen, and the dispensing of a cocktail of 'end of life' drugs (which suppress the breathing, to allow a comfortable exit) is tantamount to euthanasia, on a large scale."

Which is of course exactly what is happening here in the UK where DNR orders are rampant in care homes (or so we have been told).

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Wow

'More or Less', which is a very excellent Radio 4 programme hosted by Tim Harford, extended its run (by popular request) to look at the numbers/statistics related to Covid. Sadly, it's now on a break until August but past programmes can be listened to on BBC Sounds. If nothing else, it's worth listening to the last programme in the series which was transmitted this week. (Actually, it's always worth listening to as it regularly teases apart the way numbers have been misrepresented or misinterpreted.)

If one cares to look at the particular John Campbell video, he was actually interviewing a doctor who works in the Swedish health care system.

It wasn't a secondhand quote from the twittersphere, which is obvious superior to the BBC, according to some.

I thought the doctor seemed really concerned for the cavalier way lives were being unnecessarily lost.
D.

Dark Horse, I completely agree. It's been really interesting listening to their take over the weeks on the testing numbers provided at UK daily briefings, and this week's summing up episode was pretty spot on.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kfpy

mariefrance said:

Dark Horse, I completely agree. It's been really interesting listening to their take over the weeks on the testing numbers provided at UK daily briefings, and this week's summing up episode was pretty spot on.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kfpy

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More or Less is great and listened to that episode but I do not think they could have examined the stats on testing on Panorama as I understand that Ofwatch reminded the broadcasters to not deviate too much from the official messagin on CoVid 19.

Hi NicoleC1971 - I'm not sure which stats you're referring to but I do remember being quite surprised each week when the More or Less presenter posed the question 'Are the Government figures on testing accurate?' and the answer clearly being No with a good explanation about the issues. Never really thought of any BBC presenter as being deviant but kind of like the idea!