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COVID vaccination

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by notafanofsugar, Nov 14, 2020.

  1. Jo_the_boat

    Jo_the_boat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    We’re after a golden bullet, I don’t believe a vaccine is one yet. The tests done so far prove that it won’t do us any (much) damage but they haven’t convinced me that 70 – 90% is good enough. They have tested healthy people, including some over 70s, of course they had to start there, but the healthy are not the vulnerable. One of the stipulations of volunteering for the Oxford trial is that you have to be healthy.

    Healthy people under 60 have a tiny chance of dying, especially now as treatment has improved.

    I think that until a vaccine is sufficiently tested on every age-group with a variety of adverse health conditions, we don’t know enough. That’s just my opinion (or is it?).

    I believe, from what I have heard and read by those I consider to be informed, that there already is a golden bullet, and that is the virus itself. Back in March / April scientists were predicting that the course of the pandemic would follow a typical course and follow a classic profile. Huge initial spike, fast decrease into a children’s slide, second bump (where we are now in winter as predicted) then fade away to the background. The golden bullet is the natural decline of the virus over time, and probably not that long.
    (Reporting of testing and deaths is a shambles in my opinion anyway. ‘Cases’ are not infections and deaths reported ‘within 28 days of a positive test’ is a complete misrepresentation of deaths directly caused by covid 19).

    The sars-cov-2 pandemic (worldwide) which became an epidemic (localized) will become endemic. The virus will always be here, like the common cold and flus.

    Regarding the vaccines there are still too many questions. For example:

    Who to vaccinate? Some VERY difficult decisions will have to be made.

    Do we start with my Aunt Maude (generic) because she is the most important? What about Uncle Frank across the road, he’s only 3 years older and not too poorly yet, doesn’t he deserve another few months / a year?

    Do we start with the over 70s, 72s, 75s, 80s or everyone?
    People with stage 4 lung cancer, advanced heart-disease, badly controlled diabetes, obese people (crikey, best not go there)?
    What about people who refuse to take the vaccine? Can we force them to take it? Or, if not will they have to wear a flashing danger sign?
    Do we send the vulnerable and elderly out shopping with 90 / 80 / 70% vaccine success rate? They will be exposed to 80% of the population who have not been vaccinated. And what about those ‘in their prime’ who have been vaccinated, do we know that they are totally non-infectious or just 90% or 70% perhaps?

    There are numerous reasons why I have a distrust of the establishment’s response at the start and ongoing. I came across another yesterday, one that makes me question why we have followed the course we have……

    In 2019 WHO (World Health Organisation) guidelines said contact tracing was NOT recommended where virus is established because by the time the results come through and things are chased down a virus is already over the horizon.
    (Perhaps with an island nation where it’s hardy arrived?? Like New Zealand for example who reacted early enough, having seen other countries struggles.)
    Also, WHO said that quarantine of exposed individuals was NOT recommended because it makes no discernible difference.

    In 2019 they unsurprisingly never mentioned nation-wide lockdowns, presumably because it would have been just too absurd to do so. In fact, as far as I know China invented the lockdown. The rest of the world, instead of following advice that the WHO hadn’t even contemplated, followed China. Ultimately lockdowns and mask-wearing make very little difference.

    Just at the moment all the talk, or the vast majority of media talk anyway, is about Christmas. It’s indicative of our response to the crisis that decisions on our long-term future, that of our elderly, vulnerable and everybody else, is being influenced by the period of a week. It’s quite convenient in a way because it deflects from the real issues, life and death, science-based research and response. Not that we’ve followed the genuine science to this point anyway. And before I’m accused of lack of compassion, yes, I’d love to spend time with my grandkids.

    My opinions by the way are despite me having vascular disease and (well controlled) T2. Which is partly why my thoughts turn to the future……

    I think that we need to focus away from short-termism. From what I’ve read and heard recently (the ideas are out there if you look), we need to look closely at long-term metabolic health. I understand it plays a large part in not just T2 diabetes but cancers, cardiovascular disease, cerebrovascular disease etc. etc. Severe reaction to covid 19 is exacerbated by poor metabolic health. As a quarter of the UK is obese, that perhaps is a good place to start. How many of those who have died were, at least in part, sadly responsible for their own demise? Even if they weren’t aware of the fact. Hopefully next time a nasty new virus arrives, we’ll be better prepared both individually and nationally.

    There, I haven’t insulted anybody.
     
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  2. jenny707

    jenny707 · Newbie

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    What I would like to know is if the vaccine has been tested on people with health issues like diabetes and in my case asthma as usually testing is done on young and youngish people also has the vaccine been tested on the really elderly over 80 my mum is 87 and stepdad 95 they are fit and reasonably healthy how do we know if the vaccine will make them poorly and in my case my breathing worse
     
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  3. Ymdawd

    Ymdawd Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I am 70 years old and diabetic to boot but I will not have the covid vaccine until several million doses have been administered. It is only then that the more obscure side effects are revealed.
     
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  4. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    I am also 70 and diabetic, but I want to be alive while waiting for those million doses to complete. Bring it on I say.
     
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  5. Ymdawd

    Ymdawd Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Simply you don’t.
     
  6. Ymdawd

    Ymdawd Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    If you want an example of what I mean about unexpected adverse side effects may i mention ‘ thalidomide’.? That was nasty indeed.

    Simply put there is no shortcuts in drug safety. Several years work cannot be compressed into a couple of months.
    I respect your right to “ bring it on as you say “ but i prefer to be a little more conservative.
     
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  7. JudiP

    JudiP Type 2 · Member

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    That’s brilliant - I was fooled right to the end!
     
  8. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    I am surprised that you consider Covid- SARS2 to be safer and less harmful. I could put my head in the clouds too, since recent research is showing that most infections now come from the 16-40 year age group and that the 15-17 year age group is also showing a rising trend in asymptomatic carriers, At 70 I am well distanced from them, or so I could think, But that thinking is no guarantee that I am right. Or that I am safe, Simply put, there is no safety in Covid either. We know Covid is no magic carpet ride that our age and comorbidity presuppose us to being severely harmed by it, and that is quite clearly proven by the statistics. The 60.7 million sample pool (and rising) shows this to be a known cause of death.

    PS the Zikka virus produces similar birth defects as thalidomide. Another unfriendly virus that was probably not made in a test tube.
     
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  9. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Master
    Staff Member Administrator

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    I see those very clever bods, in Leicester are recruiting for a COVID Vaccine trial, to run 2 years and 3 months.
     
  10. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Three pregnancies? The covid is doubling every 3 months. so our current 60m cases worldwide will become 960m by the end of next year unless we change things.
     
  11. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Master
    Staff Member Administrator

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    I don't quite see anything relevant in your statement.

    I would like to think we are all open minded to the fact there are many vaccines in development. In my view, it is likely over time that there will be several vaccines licensed, over time. This trial could be for COVID, but for protection by a different mechanism to those currently in the headline.

    At this moment, I don't have any detail on the trial, but I,can possibly find out more tomorrow.
     
  12. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    There has been severe kickback against vaccines because they are not being tested with a full range of conditions in the sample, and thalidomide is usually the main mention. The trial period of 2 years 3 months happens to cover the possibility I mentioned.
    Of course, there is a solid reason why this condition should be excluded from the testing base, and also why the test sample qualification required healthy volunteers. It would have negated the trial if sick people were included since that would skew the results. I note that none of the people calling out on this feels inclined to volunteer their services for the sake of mankind.
     
  13. Dianemacfaden

    Dianemacfaden Type 1 · Active Member

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    I can’t understand why anyone would not have the vaccine! I have had type 1 nearly 50 years and been having annual flu vaccines for years with no problems so I will be first in the queue when they are rolled out.
     
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  14. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    Because they have been hastily created.
    Use for the most part completely long term untested new scientific processes.
    Don't appear to provide a whole lot of "protection".

    Need I go on?
     
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  15. Ymdawd

    Ymdawd Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Flu vaccines are fine haven been given to many millions of people with no major problems. The only major problem.? to have been shown is not to give them to people known to be allergic to eggs. Training for pharmacists includes CPR training in case of an almost theoretical possibility of anaphylactic shock - a useful bit of training in other situations too.

    Would anticipate similar situation with covid vaccine. Some will clearly be comfortable having it right away. Some will prefer to wait a while and some will not want it at all. I prefer the middle scenario/option.
     
  16. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    According to that paper that was posted earlier on in this thread, and from a reputable archive, they started investigating the base vehicle for the new vaccines in 2015. The technology is new but not hurried as you claim. Within a week or two of the Wuhan outbreak starting, and before the covid hit the rest of the world, the Chinese shared the complete genome for the covid, so it is clear they knew all about this strain, It is the same family as the SARS and MERS viruses so again there was prior experience in dealing with it. What has been rushed is the bootup the jacksy to get commercial labs online, and this is where the learning curve starts in earnest. All potential candidates for licensing have all undergone the usual 3 stage trials, with the required complement of participants meeting previously defined criteria that have been used with success for many other vaccines, so the protocols have been adhered to but are not yet complete. We await publication and peer review before independent panel grants the licence, again standard practice. Indeed there are problems with the Astrazenica results which may be serendipitous but do show a drop off in their procedures. They are recruiting now for a new trial to begin asap to extend their stage 3 trial to validate their claims.
     
  17. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    So far as I am aware no mRNA vaccine has ever been used in the human population before?
    Am I wrong?
    Two of the three proposed vaccines use this methodology.
    That they need transportation a seriously low temperatures and very careful handling rings a number of alarm bells to me especially if they are to be released into the NHS.
    Maybe I'm being overly cautious but....
     
  18. hankjam

    hankjam Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    Think only the Pfizer jab needs -80°C and it's fairly standard part of distribution logistics to transport and store on dry ice .
     
  19. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    As a vaccine, it is the new vehicle that was described as being experimented on with animals in 2015. But our bodies come across viral RNA quite often as well as the full blown DNA. The common cold is of the exact same family as the other covids. Another form of vaccine is made by using antibodies from sufferers, and that to my mind is much closer to live covid than I would like.

    I think the type of vaccine that attacks the S-protein in the spike is more worrisome since that could potentially attack the ACE-2 receptors in the blood, and those control blood pressure, That is the one I would avoid, personally speaking, and assuming I get to choose. But RNA is like the packed lunch of DNA [snip snip], and is not enough to regenerate the virus but is enough to nudge the body to produce antibody reaction, Once a lab has isolated the RNA, it can be incubated on a large scale using much the same processes as other vaccines.
     
  20. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    It needs -70C apparently, but it is able to be stored in a normal refrigerator for up to 5 days once defrosted. Apparently, the RNA is a single strand (like unzipped DNA) so that makes it fragile. It also needs to have a U particle inserted into it to make it attractive to the immune system. The strand needs to be wrapped in a lipid bubble to allow it to be delivered to the cell where it gets unpacked for use and builds the S-protein without the rest of the DNA bits. This RNA is part of the natural coding system in our bodies and is used extensively as the shorthand shipping manifesto for what it represents. Our cells use this code to recognise useful bits, and the U segment calls in the T-Cells to escort it off the premises, So although this is the first time this technique is being used in humans, it is using natural processes in the body that are fairly well understood in genetic engineering.

    The two contenders for the prize differ in what they use for the lipid, and this largely explains the different temperatures for long term storage,
     
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