Diabetes care depressingly poor

[Mongoose39uk]

Sorry but I do know the difference between someone being enthusiastic and someone trying to force feed me.

I have been around forums for a long time. If you have a look at how long it is since I joined and how long before I posted an opinion you may find a big gap. Guess what I was doing? Could I have been sitting back and reading?

It is a great place for support with the exception of a few people push an agenda far too hard.

I may be new to this forum and fairly new to having my diabetes diagnosed but I am not new to either forums or the care of people with diabetes both professionally and personally.

 

[Daibell]

Hi. The key to all of this is that we are all different and have varying degress of diabetes progressing at different rates. I have a friend diagnosed with db at the same time as me, same age etc. His GP said to eat plenty of carbs with each meal and he does. His HBa1c went high enough to have 80gm Gliclazide added to his Metformin; he immediately went hypo. This told me that his db was 'mild' as it looks like he has a fairly good pancreas and his body can use the insulin; he's thin. So, my friend doesn't need to low carb and everything is fine. Some would argue that he could reduce his carb intake and remove his meds; that's his choice. He believes his GP's advice is fine and for him it is. As you can see from my siggie, I'm on three tablets and the max dose of each. My HBa1c continues to creep up and I had a meter reading of 20.8 two hours after a meal last week. I do reasonably low carb and need to go even lower to control my sugars. Hence for me low-carbing is essential. I think the reason I frequently suggest new people on the forum low carb is that it does little or no harm and should help those who have 'serious' db and may not yet know how bad. Having a meter can then guide them to back off if they can and have more of their favourite foods. I don't think many visiting the forum would suggest following a high carb diet but the lower carb approach reduces risk and buys you time to find out what level of carbs you can actually tolerate.

 

[Robinredbreast]

I am sorry to say this but I do try to avoid the low carb threads but recently every time someone starts to discuss anything it does appear to be that some people drag low carb into it whatever the subject is. I know this is enthusiasm but for some people it comes across as bordering on obsession beyond evangelism.

I had a family history of Diabetes so up till about five years ago I would test my BG random/fasting 2 hours after eating etc. My normal was between 5.3 and 5.8.

So for me NHS diet ish. Gone from Hba1c of 14.9 to 6.9, I have a target of 6.2 for my next one. I will more than likely be at or around 5.7. Before I was diagnosed I quit smoking and lost 3.5 stone. I have not lost weight since. So weight loss is not likely to to be a factor.

I am on Metformin 500mg twice a day the intention is to drop this to once a day in six months and then to zero and just go for diet and long walks swimming etc.

My dad was diagnosed at the same age as me and lived another 35 years, he also managed to knock his meds on the head and just cope with diet.

As for affecting how long your life will be, well stone the crows, this may come as a shock but I am not interested in existing for ever. I enjoy life and will find the balance that suits me thank you very much.

Hi Mongoose :wave: I replied to the thread 'Somebody noticed' and it was confusing because people were tallking about carbs,I couldln't find anything on the link about carbs :? and it turns out its exactly the same link as this one, but with a different heading!!!!!!!

I am glad you enjoy life and have found a balance thats suits you :thumbup: Best wishes RRB

 

[catherinecherub]

You might like to read the NHS reply to the article on the BBC.

Each PCT is largely left to their own devices when it comes to how they tackle diabetes.

There are no effective accountability arrangements for commissioners (those in charge of allocating funds to particular services).

There are NO appropriate performance incentives for providers of diabetes care.

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2012/11November/ ... lives.aspx

It has been said here many times and this article reinforces that there is a postcode lottery which decides your level of care. Your PCT is responsible in deciding the way forward for you.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

I get the feeling people it works for would be frightened of saying so on this forum. Me, it works for though I have chosen to modify it slightly from preference.

So no you won't find many on here, just look at the attitude I have gotten for even daring to mention it!

I think your 100% right in that assessment, too often anyone who dares say they dont wont to go the low carb 'way' gets challenged by the evangelical few who seem to rule the forum now, it wasnt always that way though Mongoose and the more people who are prepared to stay and give their opinions other than low carb the better this forum will become again.

Low carb is NOT the only way, my HbA1c that has been constantly in the 5%'s with a minimum of meds (just Metformin) for nearly four years now proves that.

Mongoose, Sarah69, MaryJ and eggplant I applaud you all :clap: Please stay around and help make this forum useful for everyone :thumbup:

 

[borofergie]

I get the feeling people it works for would be frightened of saying so on this forum. Me, it works for though I have chosen to modify it slightly from preference.

What? Based on your whole 21 posts of experience.

I can't recall a single situation where a successful diabetic has ever been criticised for their choice of diet*. Grazer is a great example of someone who we all admire who gets great results on 150g+ of carbs a day. I regularly give pats on the back to GIers, GLers, portion controllers. Just haven't seen any examples of the lesser spotted NHSers (who aren't struggling with their diabetes).

I'd be happy to see any evidence that proves me wrong (but I won't hold my breath).

*apart from by anti-low-carbers.

 

[borofergie]

I think your 100% right in that assessment, too often anyone who dares say they dont wont to go the low carb 'way' gets challenged by the evangelical few who seem to rule the forum now, it wasnt always that way though Mongoose and the more people who are prepared to stay and give their opinions other than low carb the better this forum will become again.

Evidence Sid? Or is this just anti-low-carber prejudice?

 

[Robinredbreast]

I get the feeling people it works for would be frightened of saying so on this forum. Me, it works for though I have chosen to modify it slightly from preference.

So no you won't find many on here, just look at the attitude I have gotten for even daring to mention it!

I think your 100% right in that assessment, too often anyone who dares say they dont wont to go the low carb 'way' gets challenged by the evangelical few who seem to rule the forum now, it wasnt always that way though Mongoose and the more people who are prepared to stay and give their opinions other than low carb the better this forum will become again.

Low carb is NOT the only way, my HbA1c that has been constantly in the 5%'s with a minimum of meds (just Metformin) for nearly four years now proves that.

Mongoose, Sarah69, MaryJ and eggplant I applaud you all :clap: Please stay around and help make this forum useful for everyone :thumbup:

Its a sad, but true, but I know a few people, who don't want to say' too much' because World war 3 seems to erupt and that is not how it should be. It does spoil the forum and this should be a very informative and supportive forum for ALL different types of diabetes and the different ways of coping and managing their own diabetes.
I have re-read the article, but still no carb reference, it is about the depressinglypoor care diabetics get,unless maybe, I have to read between the lines or something :? Best wishes RRB

 

[benedict]

Mongoose39uk feels that forum members are being essentially 'force fed' diet advice. I believe this to be true and felt the need to remove one such post from this thread which fit this profile.

Many of us want to suggest help but I've seen it go too far in my opinion.

I'm personally aware of people that have followed NHS advice, in a similar way to Mongoose39uk and have achieved loss of weight and improvement of blood glucose control. The forum is a great place for suggestions but I have seen suggestions that could be considered to be coercions.

Things I don't like about this thread:

I'm glad there is someone else who says they won't strictly low carb. I have tried it but cuts out too much food I like. I certainly wouldn't be able to eat like that for the rest of my life!

That's true. But please be aware, especially as a diabetic, that your choice of what you eat has a direct influence on exactly how long "the rest of your life" will probably be.

This sounds like the grim reaper. Whether true or not, I feel this bluntness oversteps the mark.

I think your 100% right in that assessment, too often anyone who dares say they dont wont to go the low carb 'way' gets challenged by the evangelical few who seem to rule the forum now, it wasnt always that way though Mongoose and the more people who are prepared to stay and give their opinions other than low carb the better this forum will become again.

I've highlighted 'evangelical few' here. Again, whether true or not, I don't want to see any of these overly emotive, poorly veiled digs at others.

What? Based on your whole 21 posts of experience.

Needlessly confrontational. Mongoose39uk may have been spectator of the forum for enough time to get a feel for the forum.

Evidence Sid? Or is this just anti-low-carber prejudice?

As a moderator, I find adding fuel to the fire to be one of the most annoying things as it exponentially increases our workload. If someone appears to be stirring, please report it.

Edit

*apart from by anti-low-carbers.

Evangelical few (as used by Sid) and 'anti-low carbers' (borofergie) both cause division and are not at all acceptable.

Benedict

 

[borofergie]

I might be wrong, but in my experience, there isn't a culture of criticising other people's diets. I've only been here since April 2011, and maybe things were different before that.

It's true that the conversation does often turn to low-carbing, as a direct consequence of their being many successful low-carbers here who try to offer constructive advice to the failing. I personally go out of my way to offer support and to learn from, anyone that has an alterantive approach to my own. I think that the fact that people "are bullied by low-carbers" is a reoccuring myth that does not bare scrutiny.

And whether you like it or not, anyone will agree that your outcomes as a diabetic depend entirely on the diet that you eat - whatever that might be.

 

[DickM]

My diet is based on what I need to eat to lose weight and the bonus is that it has reduced my BG's and Cholesterol so it is a win win situation for me.
I eat bread (Low GI), a biscuit now and then, I have Crispbreads every lunchtime and even have the odd Chinese meal as well.
I know what spikes my BG's and avoid them or eat them is small quantities. Every Saturday I have a cooked breakfast of egg on toast/bacon/sausage and beans and at the 2hr+ mark my BG's are normally below 6.5 so I am happy with what I am doing. :thumbup:

 

[viviennem]

I do try my best not to evangelise anyone about low carb, but when you are enthusiastic about it, it can be difficult not to share too eagerly. I do think, though, that controlling carb intake to some extent is important in any treatment of diabetes. Whether it's done by portion control, reduced carb intake or moderate to extreme low carb, is a matter for the individual. But everyone makes a better choice when they are fully informed.

As for the NHS diet - I have a friend who was diagnosed Type 2 about 12 years ago, and who has followed the NHS advice to the letter. She was put on "diet only" (NHS style) on diagnosis, and though she was given a testing kit and free strips she has never used them. She has the greatest confidence in her GP - "who is a diabetic specialist, you know". I was in awe of this until I met my own diabetic specialist GP :roll: . She managed like this for quite a long time, but in the ninth year was put on Metformin because her HbA1c was creeping up. She has no idea which foods affect her blood glucose levels, and has no interest in finding out. Her GP knows best. She has been told to eat lots of carbs because they will keep her blood glucose stable.

So - she has managed quite well on the NHS diet for a number of years. So, I am sure, do many other people. But her HbA1c is creeping up, in my opinion to do with her carb-loaded diet. I wonder which of us will get the complications first? I'll keep you informed - if I ever dare talk to her about it again!

Since diagnosis she has frequently suffered from hypos, despite the frequent carbs. She has often hypo'ed in the street with no warning, and has had paramedics called to her. I once diagnosed her going into a hypo (long before I was diagnosed diabetic) and brought her round with a little honey. I had learned up on it after her diagnosis, because she is my friend. My personal opinion is that she is not a straight-forward Type 2, and should be tested further. I tried to say so once, but was cut off immediately. She trusts her GP, and anyway, what do I know, I've only been diagnosed 2 years to her 9 (at the time).

Viv 8)

 

[Unbeliever]

In many cses it depends where you re coming from. The NHS diet may well be very successful becuse it is a far healthier diet than that which was. followed before.

On the other hand we have people desperately in need of help where standard NHS advice has not been successful.

When that happens people receive a variety of suggestions and it is up to them to choose tht which is appropriate and works for them.
The suggestion to reduce starchy carbs was mde o meby the previous , now departed moderators and with other measures made an enormous difference to me. After all the standrd NHS advice is availble from the NHS. People don't need to visit a forum like this for it.. They come her for other reasons.
This is lively forum because people do have new and different ideas. I know some can be put offf by robust discussions but many more can be put off by a boring blnd repetition of the standard advice vailble from ny GP Practice. or DUK.

Most of us want to hear the actual experiences of our fellow diabetics and any new ideas or information they care to share.

It is true that some can't cope wih anything other than the standard advice and acceptance of the status quo. This begs the question of why they come here in the first place. Did they get lost on the way to a similarly named forum?

Borofergie certainly hs a point in mentioning the advice nd help given to the newly diagnosed. That is great eaure of this forum and
the same enthusiastic low carbers should be congratulted on their achievements in this area.

Those who have some sort of hpe to sustain them i in dealing with this diffficult condiion re far more likely to help others than grouchy negative people like myself It would be a great loss to the forum if they were obliged o curtail their efforts.

 

[Robinredbreast]

Mongoose39uk feels that forum members are being essentially 'force fed' diet advice. I believe this to be true and felt the need to remove one such post from this thread which fit this profile.

Many of us want to suggest help but I've seen it go too far in my opinion.

I'm personally aware of people that have followed NHS advice, in a similar way to Mongoose39uk and have achieved loss of weight and improvement of blood glucose control. The forum is a great place for suggestions but I have seen suggestions that could be considered to be coercions.

Things I don't like about this thread:

I'm glad there is someone else who says they won't strictly low carb. I have tried it but cuts out too much food I like. I certainly wouldn't be able to eat like that for the rest of my life!

That's true. But please be aware, especially as a diabetic, that your choice of what you eat has a direct influence on exactly how long "the rest of your life" will probably be.

This sounds like the grim reaper. Whether true or not, I feel this bluntness oversteps the mark.

I think your 100% right in that assessment, too often anyone who dares say they dont wont to go the low carb 'way' gets challenged by the evangelical few who seem to rule the forum now, it wasnt always that way though Mongoose and the more people who are prepared to stay and give their opinions other than low carb the better this forum will become again.

I've highlighted 'evangelical few' here. Again, whether true or not, I don't want to see any of these overly emotive, poorly veiled digs at others.

What? Based on your whole 21 posts of experience.

Needlessly confrontational. Mongoose39uk may have been spectator of the forum for enough time to get a feel for the forum.

Evidence Sid? Or is this just anti-low-carber prejudice?

As a moderator, I find adding fuel to the fire to be one of the most annoying things as it exponentially increases our workload. If someone appears to be stirring, please report it.

Edit

*apart from by anti-low-carbers.

Evangelical few (as used by Sid) and 'anti-low carbers' (borofergie) both cause division and are not at all acceptable.

Benedict

An excellent well writen post Benedict. There have been times when things like this has been written ' Carbs are poison' and also I remember another post where the posters hubby was losing a lot of unintentionial weight and some members on here were advocating low carbing :shock: nobody knew the reason as to why he was losing weight,it could, as I pointed out, be a more serious underlining problem that could be the cause and its downright dangerous to say these things and I think someone else mentioned this as well. The people who posted are, as far as I know, not doctors,or have ESP or Xray vision and it was extremly inappropiate and downright negilgent to give advice about low carbing. ANY unintentional weight loss must be reported to a doctor ASAP. I have often thought of how the posters hubby was doing :?: With best wishes RRB

 

[Unbeliever]

To take that to its logical conclusion RRB , none of us should post at all. I thought it ws understood that we were all just speaking from our own eperience nd giving our personal opinion.
As we all have different experiences we will occasionally see something which horrifies us - something which seems wrong and dangerous which otheres may not be awre of. In those circumstnces you can only try to put things right by posting youself or asking modertor to do so.
Someimes I see posts on here which I think are untrue o the point of dngerously misleding others but I have no proof of this.
The internet cn be a dangerous place and nowhere more so hn on health matters.
We ll have o wjudge for ourselves if the benefits outweigh the dnngers or if we are best sticking to those which on,y reiterate the
view of the estblishment.

 

[Robinredbreast]

There is nothing wrong in posting Unbeliever. If you want to read my post again, then please do so. UNINTENTIONAL WEIGHT LOSS = LOWCARBING, NO, downright dangerous and this is why I mentioned it. I still think Benedicts post was accurate,appropiate,well written and true. Maybe you could answer his post, as well, with your views( unless you have already done so) and if this is the case then please disregard the sentence.

Best wishes RRB

 

[Grazer]

I think you're being overly critical mongoose - and of course, statements like:-

I think your 100% right in that assessment, too often anyone who dares say they dont wont to go the low carb 'way' gets challenged by the evangelical few who seem to rule the forum now, it wasnt always that way though Mongoose and the more people who are prepared to stay and give their opinions other than low carb the better this forum will become again.

are completely out of date, if they were ever true
Of course, there's a lot of talk on here about low carbing, because a lot of people do it, but that's different to "force feeding" people on it. I don't see any force feeding; I do see a lot of sincere people taking a lot of time to suggest to new members that they should "eat to their meter, and find out the level of carbs that they can tolerate"; suggesting to them that they could "try cutting their carbs by 50%, then adjust until they find a level they're comfortable with"; suggesting that they "cut out or down on starchy carbs and eat better ones", but I don't see force feeding. I then see a lot of those new members coming back and saying how much better they are as a result, and what good results they're getting.
So you eat a fairly high carb diet, exercise, and do well on it; lucky you. So do I, lucky me. But lots of people can't exercise for physical reasons, and can't eat that higher level of carbs without going down the medication trail, so of course they go on low carb diets - so would I. And of course they talk about it, because it works. But I still don't see new members being told it's the only way, or being criticised for following another route. Quite the opposite, they are congratulated when WHATEVER route they follow gives them succesful results.

 

[Mongoose39uk]

I am not asking anyone to take any particular diet. People directly criticised the NHS diet as not working I disagree.

Am I being over critical? That's your opinion, I have expressed mine. There ya go we both have a opinion and it is different.

I perceive force feeding you don't.

There is more to the report than diet surely!

At no point have I said one diet is better than any other!

 

[Caterham]

This is an interesting thread, and I can see the various points, I think the key difference is about if you can tolerate carbs in any quantity or not.

I joined the forum 6 months ago as a very depressed person, who had the standard NHS advise, and was still seeing high test results (I was only testing urine at the time), and feeling that life was going to be very difficult from now on.

The forum, and some of the 'high posting' members influenced me to get a meter, reduce my carbs, and start testing. Since then, asking some questions on the way and, probably like Mongoose, reading hundreds of threads, I have managed to get my life back in order. I feel great, have loads of energy, and am keeping well within NICE guidelines as my recent HBA1c proves.

However, I can do this on about 130-150g of carbs a day. I realise this is higher than a lot of people on here, but my view is that my diabetes is maybe a bit different to them. Mine will probably progress to the point where I need to reduce further, but it may not.

Mongoose seems to be similar to me, he wants to gain control, but he wants to have a quality of life too. After all, there is the point that some people who have brilliant control get complications, and some people who have poor control do not.

I have experienced the 'low carb' people on here, and I appreciate their point of view, but to me the main message that does not seem to get across is that some people do have good control with an element of carbs, and that is OK.

I would also fully support the moderator with his 'grim reaper' comment. I am really horrified to see comments like;

'I want to die with my feet attached'
'I don't want to die a limbless amputee'
'I close my eyes when I see some food I like, to imagine what that would be like all the time'

Those sort of remarks scared the **** out of me when I joined this forum, and only after reading the scientific papers on thier incidence was I able to put it into perspective. Personally, I think we should ban these sort of reaper comments on this forum, and instead deal with incident ratios.

Sorry for the long post!

 

[benedict]

I think you're being overly critical mongoose.

Grazer, I feel the need to state that a post was removed which replied to mongoose which was tantamount to telling mongoose and others what they should be eating. It's not the first I've seen recently either.

Benedict