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Dr Jason Fung mauled by impeccable logic of Calorie Restriction fans...

Discussion in 'Low-carb Diet Forum' started by pdmjoker, Jul 14, 2019.

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  1. jjraak

    jjraak Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Ok, in a quest for fairness.

    For most CICO probably works well... to some degree.
    strictly speaking it should work everytime, yet the slimming clubs keep getting repeat bookings.
    (i read the memorials on here, and hear my wife and friends endlessly discussing why so and so diet failed,
    ..oh sweetie you need to the XYZ diet..it's FABULOUS " )
    and the obesity epidemic seems to know no bounds.

    So for me and many others, the advice from doctors is CICO.
    eat less move more...nice and simple..or so it would seem.

    yet for many who follow that advise, the disease progresses and the complications horrific,
    yet most general practitioners insist it's the ONLY method.

    a good case in point IS our doctor unwin. (and others of course)
    who after years of the same old advise ...saw the same old results.

    He awoke one day to see another avenue and pursued it.
    his patients improved, his results speak for themselves.
    (google him, if you are unaware who he is )

    Now pure basic CICO...for those metabolically challenged, just doesn't tick all the boxes
    we COULD cut calories and still get sicker and not lose weight, because we eat the wrong foods.
    .
    and as many can testify they have cut calories and didn't lose weight,
    ( regardless of how much you expect them to,....)
    So did they not cut enough calories, did they not exercise enough,
    OR was it the foods they ate and the fact they are metabolically damaged in some way ?
    because the weight loss never happened.

    yet those same people too stupid and lazy to follow a simple diet, come on here in there number, follow the diets others have posted AND lose significant weight, and sustain it, THAT speaks for itself.

    Something, is wrong with your pure interpretation on CICO for all, if that happened.

    Many on here, myself included, now prefer to use the Low Carb, better Fats, some will go on to use the higher fat content in LCHF, or go Full KETO.

    But none of them can say they use pure CICO.
    Very few would just be cutting down on what they USED to eat, and moving more then they did

    Because for those of us damaged in this way, the FOODS themselves carry more importance
    then the Calorific content on the packet.

    In the ND diet is 800 calories, i'd expect people to lose weight on that regime,
    but to sustain that for life until they die..Not really doable.

    That why the next step at the end of the diet, is some sort of other diet, and if your T2D,
    then the carbs element in LCHF, is where you are going to be headed if you want to retain some good health,.

    Because going back to the foods you USED to eat, thinking CICO will keep you safe, just brings you back to where you started, overweight AND with above normal blood sugars, with all the dangers that implies.

    So while the CICO, might make good sense to the young, healthy and undamaged.
    the truth for this forum is many can't just CICO,
    the abilities you list are not there in sufficient numbers for us to utilise, store or extract the goodness of many foods,
    without some damage to ourselves.

    Could we lose weight with just CICO..perhaps but at a serious health cost and unlikely unsustainable in the long term.
    Could we lose weight with LCHF..read the many, many signatures
    not only doable, BUT sustainable day by day, week by week, year by year, and please god... decade by decade.
     
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  2. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    Were these people diabetic? The point you fail to grasp is that where those calories comes from matters to a diabetic (t2). Eating the same calories from fat and from carbs measurably does make a difference to our bloods and our weight. If we eat the calories from a source we can process we control (in whatever direction) our weight. If they come from a source we cannot process normally in the way you are insisting upon then we gain weight.

    We are talking about broken biology and chemistry not just laws of physics in isolation. My body is not a perfectly operating science lab experiment. That is the point you repeatedly miss.
     
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  3. ATZ

    ATZ · Well-Known Member

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    We are done here then. Personal experience is the lowest form of evidence.

    I've noted how you've just glossed over the links that debunk your whole argument.
     
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  4. pixie1

    pixie1 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    The only scientific evidence I need is that it work for me. And my blood results tells me so.

    I doubt that someone who ate McDonalds everyday would.
     
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  5. zand

    zand Type 2 · Expert

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    Oh dear. Well my naturopath helped me cure my fatty liver and my stage 3 kidney disease. She helped me get off the 4 blood pressure tablets I was taking, although I am temporarily taking one of these again. If that's quackery then I'll take it. Blood tests and blood pressure readings don't lie.
     
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  6. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    I do hope one day you don’t find yourself with type 2 and gaining weight as a result of a broken metabolism rather than your own choices or inability to count calories accurately as you seem to think. Then you might just remember this conversation and start to realise experience does indeed have a part to play.

    Where and why do you think many a hypothesis has come from? The anecdotal experience of people that has not yet been evidenced enough to convince the skeptics.

    It happens to active people who eat within CICO guidelines too you know?
     
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  7. zand

    zand Type 2 · Expert

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    You quoted a link that showed that a group of women underestimated what they ate. Then you judged me to be the same as them. You have never met me. You don't know how strictly I stuck to the calorie comtrolled diets. That study means nothing to me because it doesn't apply to me. When counting calories I weighed my food. I knew my calorie intake.

    OK. You say we are done here. Please take something away with you. In the future when you have a patient whose body doesn't respond to your diet like it should, remember us here and listen to your patient and think just maybe they are telling the truth...just as we are here. Thank you.
     
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  8. jjraak

    jjraak Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    and of course we must remember all that science is Always absolutely correct

    remember when we KNEW..the sun revolved around the eart...
    nope
    but it was correct about the earth being fla..
    nope
    ...man being unable to fl...
    nope
    but it was correct about smoking being ok...
    nope
    and the servicemen sent out to bikini atoll in sunglasses and shorts after testing because they were saf..
    nope.

    history is littered with science being proven wrong when new evidence appears.
    and others see the reasoning and evolve their thinking.


    Not sure you wouldn't be ON the flat earth side with the establishment viewpoint,

    with all of us herestics being over here, being denounced because the scientific data doesn't recognise
    the PERSONAL experiences we have when we say we HAVE met peoples from or we've travelled to distant lands.....

    We MUST be lying.....:hilarious::hilarious::hilarious:
     
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  9. pixie1

    pixie1 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting indeed. I look forward, for you to provide all their details on how they managed their diabetes. For example are they T2 diet controlled or on meds, possibly both meds and insulin or just insulin. Or are they T1.

    Could you provide the information on their pre and post prandial testing, plus their diary of their tests on their interesting experiment. Maybe their HbA1c results before and after to see if there was significant improvements or a deterioration
    Also are you able to obtain all their liver function tests. Or better still
    I am very keenly looking forward actually to see their full blood profile..

    I'm thanking you in advance for providing all the details outlined.
     
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    #269 pixie1, Jul 18, 2019 at 3:26 PM
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  10. jjraak

    jjraak Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    oh, btw what type were you..?
     
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  11. jjraak

    jjraak Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    as testified here

    supersize me..an aptly named project./
     
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  12. zand

    zand Type 2 · Expert

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    Oh I think I know the answer to that. Type zero perhaps?
     
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  13. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    These kinds of debates always become circular arguments, and so it has come to pass here. The alleged experts will never be convinced by actual personal experiences, and those with actual personal experiences will never be convinced by the arguments of the alleged experts. What irks somewhat is that the alleged experts in this instance have rocked up on the set with the sole motive of excerting intellectual superiority over others.

    C'est la vie :cool:
     
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  14. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
    Staff Member

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    All. Further to @Brunneria s post #255 a post containing an outright insult has been deleted.

    Please keep the debate civil or there will be further deletions, possible thread bans or even complete closure of the thread. Thank you.
     
  15. 1spuds

    1spuds Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    No,its really not.
     
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  16. 1spuds

    1spuds Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    YUP!
     
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  17. 1spuds

    1spuds Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Goin
    going to be a long wait,Just like Brunneria (SP) waiting on the calorie calc for her she requested.Ignoring what you wont answer is telling IMO.We notice when you wont answer specific questions.

    Edited by moderator to remove sniping comment.
     
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    #277 1spuds, Jul 18, 2019 at 4:28 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2019
  18. 1spuds

    1spuds Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Really? So I can eat energy dense sawdust and have the same response as eating steak on my weight? I can eat nothing but fiber and have the same response as eating chicken and salad?
    Your CICO better have a heck of a lot of nutrition to be able to sustain a body healthfully,and that starts at the cellular level.X weight and Y amt of muscle does NOT equate to a healthy body in any way shape or form.
     
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  19. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    Those studies have been debunked and discussed many times on this forum. See John Ionnides (he who has no dog in any fight) for his opinion on studies like those into the Okinawans and the Tsimane.

    And you have done more glossing over than the Dulux Dog.
     
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  20. ATZ

    ATZ · Well-Known Member

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    Click on the final link where full blood tests are discussed and their (shock) improvement while eating 80% of his calories from ice cream. Because if there's one thing we know it's that being overweight is more unhealthy than the food you eat to achieve weight loss.

    Am I advocating such approaches? Not at all. They're simply great illustrations of the supposed "CICO myth" that you all seem so set on disproving. All at the same time not realising that low carb diets work by exactly the same mechanism - calorie reduction.
     
    #280 ATZ, Jul 18, 2019 at 4:51 PM
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
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