1. Get the Diabetes Forum App for your phone - available on iOS and Android.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, we'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the Diabetes Forum Survey 2020 »
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Diabetes Forum should not be used in an emergency and does not replace your healthcare professional relationship. Posts can be seen by the public.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Guest, stay home, stay safe, save the NHS. Stay up to date with information about keeping yourself and people around you safe here and GOV.UK: Coronavirus (COVID-19). Think you have symptoms? NHS 111 service is available here.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Find support, ask questions and share your experiences. Join the community »

Dr Jason Fung mauled by impeccable logic of Calorie Restriction fans...

Discussion in 'Low-carb Diet Forum' started by pdmjoker, Jul 14, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. zand

    zand Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    9,317
    Likes Received:
    15,554
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I have been to a nutritionist. She advised me to replace my dairy intake with soy. I did. I gained weight. Next I went to a naturopath who did tests and told me that soya was bad for my thyroid.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Hug Hug x 1
  2. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,210
    Likes Received:
    3,204
    Trophy Points:
    198
    This will be met with derision. Harcombe is viewed by the CICO evangelists as a quack, alongside Fung, Taubes, and anyone else who happens to disagree with “the experts” :D
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,210
    Likes Received:
    3,204
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Please don’t get me started on soy. I don’t want to grow boobs, but that’s another discussion :D
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
    Staff Member

    Messages:
    19,501
    Likes Received:
    33,404
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Yes, there is nothing more confirmatory than confirmation bias, is there?

    Although of course that works in any direction that confirmation bias can take you...
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. Tophat1900

    Tophat1900 Type 3c · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,816
    Likes Received:
    1,029
    Trophy Points:
    178
    That's my position also, I know what works for me and keeps me stable and where I want to be. And quite a bit of that is by ignoring conventional expert advice, it takes time to figure out your own personal jigsaw. And it's not one single thing that does it, it's a multitude of things learned (Usually the hard way). A lot of trialing and testing. People pushing CICO or any one method (Low fat etc) as the be all end all of your problems usually have a financial incentive to do so. So you are given flawed, biased opinion at times.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  6. Dark Horse

    Dark Horse · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    791
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Again, I think part of the problem is that people here using the term CICO to mean the low-calorie approach to weight-loss. They are using 'calories in' to mean the calories on the plate wher
    Very interesting - have you got any links to studies which show this?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
    Staff Member

    Messages:
    19,501
    Likes Received:
    33,404
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Absolutely.
    And those same Experts have a huge disadvantage. For all their knowledge, they can only spend a few minutes, and a few appointments with me, whereas I have been living with my body, and seen the havoc that certain advice causes, in a very immediate and personal way. On a full time and daily basis, too.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. Tophat1900

    Tophat1900 Type 3c · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,816
    Likes Received:
    1,029
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Yes, and unfortunately that's where expert advice can lag behind the times. They don't have the time to sit and research like we do. I've sat at appts and been dismissed by experts before I can even finish explaining something to them. Yet, they asked what I was doing to get such good results. And then don't want to hear it because it goes against what they have been taught or believe.

    Ah well, do what works I say. That is the key.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Richard'63

    Richard'63 Prefer not to say · Active Member

    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    58
    "And if obesity is a symptom and not a cause?"
    Then Professor Taylor's experiment would not have worked.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
    Staff Member

    Messages:
    19,501
    Likes Received:
    33,404
    Trophy Points:
    298
    I disagree.
    The obesity is a symptom of insulin resistance (for many, but not all of us).
    There are many reasons for insulin resistance, and many reasons for obesity, which go far beyond fat in the liver and pancreas - and the Newcastle Diet only addresses a narrow range of those.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    #150 Brunneria, Jul 17, 2019 at 7:57 AM
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  11. jpscloud

    jpscloud Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    603
    Likes Received:
    834
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Of course I'll lose weight if I eat one chocolate bar a day, or one potato or whatever. I am not disputing that a calorie deficit causes weight loss, but I am disputing that CICO is an effective attitude to hold, particularly from healthcare providers who, if they haven't experienced hormonally driven weight gain themselves, can be inclined to dismiss weight gainers as greedy, weak, poorly educated on nutrition, etc.
     
    • Winner Winner x 7
  12. zand

    zand Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    9,317
    Likes Received:
    15,554
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Then when the weight gainers find something that works for them such as LCHF or keto then the HCPs assume that we are at last following their instructions to eat less and move more. I have tried to talk about what works for me as it may help them to understand others but most of them just aren't interested.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. zand

    zand Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    9,317
    Likes Received:
    15,554
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Yes I began to get insulin resistant when I was 30 ish. I didn't have health problems (except for the weight gain) until I was 51. I wasn't diagnosed T2 until I was 53
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Hug Hug x 1
  14. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

    Messages:
    14,971
    Likes Received:
    10,746
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Not really... Prof Taylor's experiments are on the removal of visceral rather than plain old subcutaneous body fat.
    And "works" is a relative term.. over time the method seems to become less effective as the recent 24 month results release seems to show.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. jpscloud

    jpscloud Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    603
    Likes Received:
    834
    Trophy Points:
    133
    To be fair I think any weight loss protocol will "work" at least in the short term, but I was looking for, and found, a health promoting weight loss protocol that works for people with metabolic disease.

    Homeostasis, I.e. the body adjusting metabolism and appetite to keep current weight stable (even if that is an unhealthy weight) is another reason I don't recognise a purely CICO based approach/belief as effective long term.

    LCHF with intermittent fasting is an approach that not only proves effective for many people long term for weight control but also can mitigate that yoyo effect where people end up gaining more than they lost each time they do a CICO based diet.

    Of course calorie surplus and deficit count - it's just the promotion of CICO as a cure for my metabolic disease I won't accept.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,210
    Likes Received:
    3,204
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I think forty years of CICO have proven that it doesn’t work as a sustainable weight loss intervention. I don’t know a single person who tried a fad CICO diet who, two years later, weighs less than when they started. Most are heavier. I’m sure it’s the dieters’ fault though...I mean...thermodynamics, bro!

    ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

    Messages:
    10,582
    Likes Received:
    6,971
    Trophy Points:
    278
    Genuine question, do they weigh coma patients to check that the calories in correspond to the calories out? Are calculations wrt to nutrients based solely on weight, gender and age etc?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. jpscloud

    jpscloud Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    603
    Likes Received:
    834
    Trophy Points:
    133
    The quality of those dietary fats is questionable though - industrial seed oils and corn oils, suitably cheap and ubiquitous in processed foods, are now thought to be inflammatory.

    In that sense, increased dietary calories from fat could well contribute to obesity. Good quality, non-inflammatory fats are virtually absent from a diet high in processed foods, and again, a calorie from one is not the same as a calorie from the other.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Winner Winner x 2
  19. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,322
    Likes Received:
    1,751
    Trophy Points:
    178
    ermm.....................what else could it be? I dont inhale calories from air. Where are these other calories in coming from?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Larissima

    Larissima Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    835
    Likes Received:
    7,527
    Trophy Points:
    178
    I wish people would stop worshipping laws of thermodynamics as if they were God Almighty. Thermodynamics is a branch of physics that explains what happens in closed systems. The human body is an open system,interacting at numerous levels (biological, chemical, electromagnetic, even quantum for what we know) with the outer and inner environment. I don't really care if you're a believer in CICO, but don't misuse and misapply laws of physics!
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 2
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  • Meet the Community

    Find support, connect with others, ask questions and share your experiences with people with diabetes, their carers and family.

    Did you know: 7 out of 10 people improve their understanding of diabetes within 6 months of being a Diabetes Forum member. Get the Diabetes Forum App and stay connected on iOS and Android

    Grab the app!
  • Tweet with us

  • Like us on Facebook