Dr Jason Fung mauled by impeccable logic of Calorie Restriction fans...

[lucylocket61]

The fact is Low carb or LCHF diets work by getting people to eat less over time. They work for some and not others that much is true, but fundamentally work by the same rules as any other effective weight control diet, that is CICO.

no. They dont. Thats the point you are missing. They are not necessarily calorie restricted. Often they involve eating more calories. Its the balance of fats, protein and carbs which is important. Keep reading. Keep an open mind.

 

[bulkbiker]

But if carbs are driving obesity why the continued upward trend?

Possibly because people are still eating over 450g of carbs per day..?

 

[ATZ]

Trouble for you is it worked..
Both for me and for many others here.

Yep. But not because you restricted carbohydrates.

But because it caused you to eat less food full stop.

List me some foods you'd typcially overconsume before switching to it.

 

[lucylocket61]

But if carbs are driving obesity why the continued upward trend?

because carbs influence our bodies insulin response, which in turn influences our ability to lay down fat stores. Keep reading on this website (not just the forum) and the links.

 

[lucylocket61]

Yep. But not because you restricted carbohydrates.

But because it caused you to eat less food full stop.

List me some foods you'd typcially overconsume before switching to it.

I have clicked funny because, have you seen what @bulkbiker eats? keep reading.

 

[bulkbiker]

Yep. But not because you restricted carbohydrates.

But because it caused you to eat less food full stop.

List me some foods you'd typcially overconsume before switching to it.

I'm so glad you have been here sitting on my shoulder for the past 4 years so you can tell me what I have been eating.

You have zero idea of what I eat. how I eat or what has changed to enable a significant weight loss.

 

[ATZ]

no. They dont. Thats the point you are missing. They are not necessarily calorie restricted. Often they involve eating more calories. Its the balance of fats, protein and carbs which is important. Keep reading. Keep an open mind.

Again you're showing your misunderstanding.

"Eating more" is a loose term.

Eating more what? Vegetables and lower calorie density foods? Sure. Eating more calories than they were beforehand? Unlikely.

Also the energy balance equation is not static.

If you "eat more" as in truly eat more calories, but it's of better composition - more protein, more macronutrients then often people feel better and move more too. Very often diet intervention also happens alongside other lifestyle changes, like better sleep and exercise, which also tip the balance to expending more calories.

This is wholly explainable and still conforms to the laws of thermodynamics.

 

[lucylocket61]

Yep. But not because you restricted carbohydrates.

But because it caused you to eat less food full stop.

List me some foods you'd typcially overconsume before switching to it.

I used to believe in CICO. I dieted for 20 years. I focused on carbs, very low fat, counted religiously. I gained weight and eventually became a type 2 diabetic. In the 7+ years I have been LCHF I have halted my type 2 diabetes, and not gain a pound, and I am eating more than the 800-1000 cals I was on for 20 years prior to this.

My story is not unique. Do more research and expand your field of research.

 

[ATZ]

because carbs influence our bodies insulin response, which in turn influences our ability to lay down fat stores. Keep reading on this website (not just the forum) and the links.

Insulin is not your only fat storage hormone. I'd encourage you to delve a bit deeper rather than telling others to.

 

[lucylocket61]

Again you're showing your misunderstanding.

"Eating more" is a loose term.

Eating more what? Vegetables and lower calorie density foods? Sure. Eating more calories than they were beforehand? Unlikely.

Also the energy balance equation is not static.

If you "eat more" as in truly eat more calories, but it's of better composition - more protein, more macronutrients then often people feel better and move more too. Very often diet intervention also happens alongside other lifestyle changes, like better sleep and exercise, which also tip the balance to expending more calories.

This is wholly explainable and still conforms to the laws of thermodynamics.

Well, it appears you are not going to believe my actual , real life 27 years experiences. I wont engage with a closed mind any further.

BTW more sleep and exercise? I have had ME/CFS for decades. bad sleep, no exercise, no changes in them when I switched to eating more calories (see my previous post) and different foods.

 

[ATZ]

I'll sign off for this evening by saying I'm not against LCHF or even low carb diets. They work.

But they work the same as any other effective weight management diet. CICO.

My sole point is they aren't necessary, or indeed a cureall.

 

[Guzzler]

Again you're showing your misunderstanding.

"Eating more" is a loose term.

Eating more what? Vegetables and lower calorie density foods? Sure. Eating more calories than they were beforehand? Unlikely.

Also the energy balance equation is not static.

If you "eat more" as in truly eat more calories, but it's of better composition - more protein, more macronutrients then often people feel better and move more too. Very often diet intervention also happens alongside other lifestyle changes, like better sleep and exercise, which also tip the balance to expending more calories.

This is wholly explainable and still conforms to the laws of thermodynamics.

Yeah, so how do you explain TOFI-ism? I am TOFI and a wheelchair user suffering chronic pain. To clarify, I sit in a wheelchair from waking to sleeping, no regimented exercise, now by your reckoning I should be huge and yet I'm not. Or else I must be eating like a little Jenny Wren... which I certainly do not.

 

[lucylocket61]

I'll sign off for this evening by saying I'm not against LCHF or even low carb diets. They work.

But they work the same as any other effective weight management diet.

My sole point is they aren't necessary, or indeed a cureall.

You are on a diabetes site. Its a diet to help with type 2 diabetes. No-one on here has claimed its a cure-all. Diabetics have unique dietary responses and needs. You seem to keep missing that point.

 

[AnthonyDee]

no. They dont. Thats the point you are missing. They are not necessarily calorie restricted. Often they involve eating more calories. Its the balance of fats, protein and carbs which is important. Keep reading. Keep an open mind.

All diets work for fat loss through a calorie deficit, always. There are MOUNTAINS of scientific evidence on this.

 

[Brunneria]

@ATZ and @AnthonyDee

Thank you for the quick responses.

So you are one nutritionalist, and one personal trainer/nutrition researcher.

Clearly your livelihoods depend on supporting the CICO thinking, whereas, for me and many other members here, our long term health depends on rejecting that thinking, and doing what works for us and our bodies.

 

[lucylocket61]

All diets work for fat loss through a calorie deficit, always.

except many of us on here.

 

[ATZ]

You are on a diabetes site. Its a diet to help with type 2 diabetes. No-one on here has claimed its a cure-all. Diabetics have unique dietary responses and needs. You seem to keep missing that point.

Tell me what are the two biggest risk factors for developing type 2?

For brevity I'll do it:

1. Being overweight

2. Sedentary behaviour

Neither of which are caused by carbohydrates. So no, I'm not missing the point. Diabetics do not in practice need any special diets if they are overweight.

Sure find out what works for you in order to prevent over eating and if that's LC or LCHF then great.

 

[AnthonyDee]

@ATZ and @AnthonyDee

Thank you for the quick responses.

So you are one nutritionalist, and one personal trainer/nutrition researcher.

Clearly your livelihoods depend on supporting the CICO thinking, whereas, for me and many other members here, our long term health depends on rejecting that thinking, and doing what works for us and our bodies.

Why would I care if CICO works or not? I'm not being paid by thermodynamics to promote it.

All I care about is getting my clients results. It just happens that thermodynamics (like gravity) applies.

What am I supposed to do? Lie to people about how the "big calorie" lied to them and about how calories don't count, so they should buy my low carb book?

I'm sorry, but my morals don't allow me to do that.

With the above said, I'm also signing off. I wish everyone in here the best.

 

[bulkbiker]

Tell me what are the two biggest risk factors for developing type 2?

For brevity I'll do it:

1. Being overweight

2. Sedentary behaviour

Neither of which are caused by carbohydrates. So no, I'm not missing the point. Diabetics do not in practice need any special diets if they are overweight.

Sure find out what works for you in order to prevent over eating and if that's LC or LCHF then great.

What's the nutritionists equivalent of "Mansplaining" because you've just done it...

And if obesity is a symptom and not a cause?

 

[ATZ]

@ATZ and @AnthonyDee

Thank you for the quick responses.

So you are one nutritionalist, and one personal trainer/nutrition researcher.

Clearly your livelihoods depend on supporting the CICO thinking, whereas, for me and many other members here, our long term health depends on rejecting that thinking, and doing what works for us and our bodies.

Nutritionist. Out of interest do you hold any qualifications that enable you to give out nutritional advice?

Your long term health depends on primarily maintaining a healthy bodyweight.

And my livelihood depends on helping people.

CICO is not a movement or a preference. Not some fad diet. It's established scientific consensus. As the saying goes, you're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. All diets work by creating an energy imbalance, as Anthony says this has been studied to death in metabolic wards.