1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Get the Diabetes Forum App for your phone - available on iOS and Android.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Guest, we'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the Diabetes Forum Survey 2019 »
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Diabetes Forum should not be used in an emergency and does not replace your healthcare professional relationship. Posts can be seen by the public.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Find support, ask questions and share your experiences. Join the community »

Dr Jason Fung mauled by impeccable logic of Calorie Restriction fans...

Discussion in 'Low-carb Diet Forum' started by pdmjoker, Jul 14, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

    Messages:
    10,362
    Likes Received:
    6,883
    Trophy Points:
    278
    Those are risk factors not causes. Sedentary Suzie never overweight here.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,743
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Trophy Points:
    178
    we dont give out nutritional advice. This is a support forum. We share our personal experiences, and links to research from accredited medical professionals.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. ATZ

    ATZ · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    18
    This is playing out exactly like any dietary conversation with a low carb evangelist.

    It works for you. I get it.

    There's plenty for which it doesn't though and it primarily down to denying CICO and blaming it all on carbs. I've been there and worked with these people.

    Low carb diets produce spontaneous calorie reductions without monitoring calorie intake when studied in a lab setting. That's why they work. That and restricting an entire food group, less choice = less opportunity to screw up.
     
  4. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,743
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Trophy Points:
    178
    which indicates that CICO doesnt work for all.
    Still maintaining that we are all lying about our calories intake and incapable of calculating our consumption.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

    Messages:
    13,425
    Likes Received:
    10,080
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Excellent so my credentials are still intact.. thank you..

    It is also very similar to many other conversations I have had with equally certain CICO zealots.

    Unfortunately I didn't start to keep a food diary until I had lost the bulk of my weight so can't give you exact details of what I used to eat. However when I started out I was eating about 3-4,000 calories per day at a weight of 230 pounds.

    I should have been gaining weight as I was also very sedentary and still am. That did not happen.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. ATZ

    ATZ · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    18
    CICO is not a diet, it's the law of thermodynamics.

    It works for all whether you accept it or not.

    Post edited by moderator to remove an insult to another member.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    #126 ATZ, Jul 17, 2019 at 12:03 AM
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2019
  7. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,743
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Trophy Points:
    178
    insults on my intelligence are not required, thank you. CICO clearly does not work for everyone, as seen on here. I will not engage with someone so rude and inflexible.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Hug Hug x 1
    #127 lucylocket61, Jul 17, 2019 at 12:04 AM
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2019
  8. ATZ

    ATZ · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    18
    "About 3000-4000 calories"

    In other words no idea.

    When overweight and obese populations have been studied using doubly labelled water they mis report their intake by up to half in either direction.

    Just watch secret eaters for a perfect demostration of this.

    FYI a fairly sedentary 230lb man could easily have a weight maintenance calorie requirement of around 3000-3500 calories.
     
  9. Resurgam

    Resurgam Type 2 (in remission!) · Expert

    Messages:
    6,240
    Likes Received:
    4,083
    Trophy Points:
    198
    It is rather funny to have been told so emphatically that when trying to eat low fat low calorie, and failing, I was eating more than I realized, but now that I am eating low carb high fat, and succeeding, I am eating less than I think.
    Perhaps personal experience just has to be wrong no matter what it is.
     
    • Winner Winner x 7
    • Like Like x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

    Messages:
    10,362
    Likes Received:
    6,883
    Trophy Points:
    278
    CICO works great on paper. Meanwhile, in the real world, it is said that 95% to 98*% of those who lose weight using a calorie restricted diet regain the lost weight and some even gain more than they lost. Hence the phrase known and heard by many here "Oh I must go back to WW/SW" the operative words being 'go back'.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    #130 Guzzler, Jul 17, 2019 at 12:10 AM
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2019
  11. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Expert
    Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    9,175
    Likes Received:
    5,540
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Ladies and gents, this thread is becoming increasingly fractious, which cannot be allowed. Please remain civil and courteous to each other, or risk the consequences of thread edits, deletions and exclusion from the conversation.

    This applies to everyone. Everyone.
     
  12. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Expert
    Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    9,175
    Likes Received:
    5,540
    Trophy Points:
    198
    As a matter of interest, what do you estimate my calorific requirement to be, please @ATZ ? I am 160cm, weight 49kg, and am active in my day to day life, without formal exercise.

    My work is largely desk driving.
     
  13. Dark Horse

    Dark Horse · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    727
    Trophy Points:
    133
    I suspect that some of the disagreement on this thread arises because non-scientists and scientists are using CICO to mean different things.

    To understand CICO, scientists will consider a person under controlled conditions, e.g. locked in a room with controlled calorie intake and with all calorie outputs measured (weight gain, exercise, non-exercise activity thermogenesis etc.). This does not stop scientists from agreeing that, in the real world, calorie-controlled diets are mostly not successful for weight-loss in the long-term for various reasons - people tend to have trouble sticking to low calories diet, underestimate how much they eat, tend to reduce their activity levels as they reduce their calories etc. etc.

    CICO is perfectly compatible with the idea that a low-carb diet might be more successful for maintaining weight-loss than a calorie-controlled diet - CICO tells us nothing about appetite, eating habits, voluntary exercise, changes in BMR etc.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. 1spuds

    1spuds Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    375
    Likes Received:
    386
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I noticed that too.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Tophat1900

    Tophat1900 Type 3c · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes Received:
    795
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I do agree, we are talking about the real world, not the controlled world of ward studies. Calorie restriction (Eat less, move more) has a long history of failure. It's just not as simple as CICO, there is more to it then that. If it were that simple and that easy it would a very successful approach.

    It is true that people are terrible at estimating how much they have eaten unless they measure food and log everything, but when people adhere to a diet and eventually can't maintain it, it's because they are starving. And telling people they are not being honest when they are is not just insulting to a person, but it makes me wonder if defending a position is more important.

    I think CICO plays a role in weight management, it can't be ignored, but it's missing other components such as the role of insulin and various other markers you mentioned. Thinking CICO is all it takes is like buying a painting to hang on your wall, beautifully framed, nice scenic painting, but 50% of the picture hasn't been finished.... so just ignore that unfinished part and assume that the whole painting is more of the same.
     
    • Winner Winner x 6
  16. zand

    zand Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    8,929
    Likes Received:
    15,284
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Did you read the thread I quoted back on page 4? I would be interested to know why you think I lose weight when eating alot more calories when those calories are made up of fat?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    #136 zand, Jul 17, 2019 at 4:40 AM
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  17. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    2,473
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Ah I didn’t realise our new members were nutritionists and personal trainers. Looks like we got it all wrong, guys. Can’t believe I was duped by Dr. Fung all this time. If only I’d listened to expert opinion instead :(
     
    • Funny Funny x 7
    • Winner Winner x 2
  18. Winnie53

    Winnie53 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,985
    Likes Received:
    1,964
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Didn't Nina Tiecholz do a lecture on thermodynamics and weight loss? I've been listening to her lectures tonight to find it, but no luck so far.

    I've dieted twice in my life. South Beach Diet - (which is low carb and low fat) - lost 20 pounds but was hungry the whole month so stopped it. Then more recently, low carb high fat, lost 26 pounds, and enjoyed it once I became fat adapted. Still eating that way 4+ years later.
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Winnie53

    Winnie53 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,985
    Likes Received:
    1,964
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Oops, it was actually Zoe Harcombe...

    Public Lecture Series: 'The Obesity Epidemic' - Zoë Harcombe.


    She tackles the topic at the beginning of her lecture.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    #139 Winnie53, Jul 17, 2019 at 6:22 AM
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  20. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
    Staff Member

    Messages:
    17,863
    Likes Received:
    32,285
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Well, I have to disagree with you Jim. ;) ;) ;)

    I discovered long ago that there is no one - absolutely no one - is an expert in me and my endocrinologolically challenged body - except myself, of course. I now live in a happy zone, building a wall to keep out the Expert stuff that doesn’t work for me.

    If only I had discovered this earlier, then I wouldn’t be in the physical condition I now am.

    All those expert pearls of wisdom that turned out to be corrosive stink bombs... eat less, move more, CICO, all you need is willpower, if I can do it then anyone can, go for the burn...

    Nowadays I require a great deal more from an Expert than numerous repetitions of ‘I am an Expert so I am right and you are wrong. Now stop arguing and do what I tell you!’

    My life is one long experimental journey on what works for me - my body, my endocrine system, my food intolerances, my joints, my blood glucose... very pleased with my progress so far, too.

    Edited for grammar
     
    • Winner Winner x 7
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    #140 Brunneria, Jul 17, 2019 at 6:40 AM
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  • Meet the Community

    Find support, connect with others, ask questions and share your experiences with people with diabetes, their carers and family.

    Did you know: 7 out of 10 people improve their understanding of diabetes within 6 months of being a Diabetes Forum member. Get the Diabetes Forum App and stay connected on iOS and Android

    Grab the app!
  • Tweet with us

  • Like us on Facebook