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Dr Jason Fung mauled by impeccable logic of Calorie Restriction fans...

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Resurgam said:
I have been called a liar, delusional, a glutton, and various other unpleasant things - I have even been threatened with being 'taken and fed properly' - though just who would do the taking and where to was never clear.
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That sounds horrendous, but doesn't totally surprise me, either... So unfair. Cruel, even?
 
lucylocket61 said:
I am amazed that people dont realise that, for some of us, reducing calories doesn't lead to weight loss.
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In which case you didn't truly reduce calories. Or your output adapted.

Because every time it is done in a metabolic ward humans consistently and predictably lose weight.

The issue is implementing it in free living conditions.
 
Richard'63 said:
You have to be in calorie deficit! You have to be consuming less than your lifestyle requires.
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so how do you calculate what goes in (is it equivalent for everything or does it differ), what is available, what is accessible, what is used? is your assessment robust (repeatable), does it apply to everyone or are there individual differences?
 
zand said:
I am amazed that some people really believe CICO works for everyone. Here's my experience of eating as much fat as I could eat in a little experiment of my own.

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/my-5-day-dairy-fat-fast.81433/

You can be in deficit and still not lose weight if your metabolism is broken.
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CICO is a law of physics. It works for everyone when applied properly. The issue is people don't understand it.

Outside of certain disease states your metabolism isn't broken.
 
ATZ said:
CICO is a law of physics. It works for everyone when applied properly. The issue is people don't understand it.

Outside of certain disease states your metabolism isn't broken.
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Read the thread I quoted!!!
 
Adm_Mad said:
Well if we are going by personal experiences, mine is that if I don’t calorie restrict my blood sugar soars and stays high even if all I’ve eaten for six days is ground beef, bacon, a few cabbage leaves, salt and pepper and water. So maybe it might be good (or at least just compassionate) to remember that this is an extremely complicated and contradictory disease and as amazing as following any particular guru may have been for you, their holy scripture might not be what’s best for everyone.

I’m so sorry if this seems hostile, I don’t mean it to be. I just want to stick me neck out and say that something that seems to work for a lot of the prolific posters here doesn’t work for me, in the hope that it reassures lurkers who have similar differing experiences but feel too intimidated to speak up, as showing doubt in certain scriptures here seems to be frowned on, LOL.
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Very good point, that we are all different and the topic is extremely complicated! Thank you!

If you essentially eat just meat and eating too much raises your blood sugar, perhaps it is too much protein (rather than too many calories) that are the problem? Just a thought...
 
ATZ said:
CICO is a law of physics. It works for everyone when applied properly. The issue is people don't understand it.

Outside of certain disease states your metabolism isn't broken.
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ATZ said:
CICO is a law of physics. It works for everyone when applied properly. The issue is people don't understand it.

Outside of certain disease states your metabolism isn't broken.
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And these 'disease states' are?

If my metabolism is not broken then how come I have IR and hyperinsulineamia and hyperglycaemia (this last is now managed by ignoring calories and taking care, instead, of carbohydrate intake)? Type 2 Diabetes is not a disease of calories it is a disease of intolerance.
 
Richard'63 said:
I'm sort of amazed at how people are try to prove that humans are immune to the first law of thermodynamics.
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I'm sort of amazed that some people don't understand that a human body is a complex biological system with numerous inputs, feedback loops and outpus, not an isolated closed vat full of gas... Or they just don't understand where thermodynamics applies.
 
ATZ said:
In which case you didn't truly reduce calories. Or your output adapted.

Because every time it is done in a metabolic ward humans consistently and predictably lose weight.

The issue is implementing it in free living conditions.
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Free living conditions include internal feedback loops. What if your body is struggling to deal with sugar but at the same time sending messages it's hungry because the body is all out of whack (technical term). So the individual is making appropriate choices based on the messages the body is sending which are also correspondingly negative for the body. Conclusion is free living conditions are dangerous, especially if you are ill informed (or mislead).
 
Ladies and gents, please remain civil or posts will be deleted and so on.

Where claims are made to science, please post links to back up claims,
 
copilost said:
so how do you calculate what goes in (is it equivalent for everything or does it differ), what is available, what is accessible, what is used? is your assessment robust (repeatable), does it apply to everyone or are there individual differences?
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Unless you have a shed load of money, access to a metabolic ward, and plenty of time then for the individual trial and error. Or you could read the many stories available from recovering anorexics.
 
Larissima said:
I'm sort of amazed that some people don't understand that a human body is a complex biological system with numerous inputs, feedback loops and outpus, not an isolated closed vat full of gas... Or they just don't understand where thermodynamics applies.
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Thermodynamics apply everywhere!
 
Richard'63 said:
Unless you have a shed load of money, access to a metabolic ward, and plenty of time then for the individual trial and error. Or you could read the many stories available from recovering anorexics.
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but that's the point your generalisation isn't valid without that input, so you can't judge (or know).
 
ATZ said:
In which case you didn't truly reduce calories. Or your output adapted.

Because every time it is done in a metabolic ward humans consistently and predictably lose weight.

The issue is implementing it in free living conditions.
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as you read around the posters on this forum, you will find several of us in this situation of living on very little food and not losing weight. It happens. Humans are complex creatures and we vary in our responses to many things. Its well known when out hormonal systems are out of kilter.
 
I think that the biggest issue with CICO is the (incorrect) assumptions most people make about it.

I would highly recommend people read the CICO article on the same website (Myolean Fitness) before attempting to dismiss CICO.
 
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copilost said:
but that's the point your generalisation isn't valid without that input, so you can't judge (or know).
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If you want to lose weight without access to labs you've pretty much got two choices.
Get extreme https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/12/type-2-diabetes-diet-cure
or find your typical calorie requirement for your age, gender and activity level, then experiment. Drop the calories, drop them some more, add some.
All depends on what you want to achieve and how quickly.
 
AnthonyDee said:
I think that the biggest issue with CICO is the (incorrect) assumptions most people make about it.

I would highly recommend people read the CICO article on the same website (Myolean Fitness) before attempting to dismiss CICO.
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Perhaps you may find the 'Carbohydrate Insulin Model' interesting research, after all this is a Diabetes site not only a weight loss site.
 
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