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Fats and Insulin Resistance

bulkbiker said:
With 30 pages of references the book, written by an expert by the way, is a far better source of information than I can provide you with.
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With so many pages surely you can provide one or two studies to make your case? Just saying go buy a book isn’t helpful on a format such as this. I personally wouldn’t buy anything by this Dr as I’ve seen enough interviews to know he is wrong.
 
bulkbiker said:
Seems to show that even short term in the healthy and obese carbs raise insulin secretion levels will minimal impact on blood glucose levels. ? Still only over 2 weeks though.
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Oops messed up the formatting on the last one.
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The discussion is not about nutritional ketosis but the idea that insulin makes you fat. In the first study it was conducted in a metabolic ward and insulin levels were reduced by 57% in the low carb group and we see no increased fat loss. If insulin makes you fat/lowering insulin causes fat loss we should have seen something yet we didn’t.
 
bulkbiker said:
The trouble of course with all these studies is that they are specifically designed to demonstrate something.. many of them do.. I find the studies that disprove what they set out to show far more appealing and interestingly far rarer.
Unfortunately people will be people are are usually quite happy to lie on food frequency questions and of course have dreadful recall as to what they ate yesterday let alone for a whole year.
This is why the field of human nutritional science is so poor with "maybes" and "possibles" all over the place.
It's not acceptable to take people and lock them up in closed wards for a lifetime plus it's very expensive to feed people for months on end to test reactions to various dietary differences.
I tend to prefer real life changes in markers in health as a guide to what is best for us. We'll never likely know what is "good" and what is "bad" completely but looking at people who have great successes should be used to give us some pointers don't you think.
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I do agree with the last paragraph completely. And the results people have with low carb and carnivore etc whilst improving many risk factors means I think these diets, if well planned, are very useful approaches to weight loss/improving blood glucose control. This makes me at odd law with many of my peers. It is just the explanation for the mechanism that is an issue as I do not believe it is correct.
 
Sean_Raymond said:
It is just the explanation for the mechanism that is an issue as I do not believe it is correct.
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To be honest then who cares?

If it works I'd rather advocate it without knowing precisely why it works (although I don't believe I'm in that situation) than not advocate it and let people stay sick.
 
Sean_Raymond said:
The discussion is not about nutritional ketosis but the idea that insulin makes you fat. In the first study it was conducted in a metabolic ward and insulin levels were reduced by 57% in the low carb group and we see no increased fat loss. If insulin makes you fat/lowering insulin causes fat loss we should have seen something yet we didn’t.
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After 4 weeks I'm not surprised. Ketogenic adaptation and especially the process of becoming a true fat burner can take up to 2 or 3 months and that's when fat starts to disappear. The initial loss is water weight and little to do with insulin that comes later.

Still wondering what kind of HCP you are who is willing to dismiss an associate professor at a university out of hand.

https://bikmanlab.byu.edu/LabMembers/PrincipalInvestigator.aspx
 
Sean_Raymond said:
It’s important to understand the cause of any pathology.
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why? for academics maybe. for those of us with improved health its certainly of less importance.
I'd far rather be healthy personally.

This is the disagreement I have with many researchers who seem to think that "winning the argument" is more beneficial than making people better.
 
bulkbiker said:
why? for academics maybe. for those of us with improved health its certainly of less importance.
I'd far rather be healthy personally.

This is the disagreement I have with many researchers who seem to think that "winning the argument" is more beneficial than making people better.
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Exactly. I don't really care why a fat fast where I consume more calories than usual, but most of them from fat helps me to lose weight. I just know that it does. I don't care why reducing calories no longer works for me. I just know that it doesn't.
 
I remember a similar discussion with this op a couple of years ago. It was unproductive then, so I will bow out of this rehash.

@Sean_Raymond you never did share, even then, what sort of HCP you are or your credentials.
 
lucylocket61 said:
I remember a similar discussion with this op a couple of years ago. It was unproductive then, so I will bow out of this rehash.

@Sean_Raymond you never did share, even then, what sort of HCP you are or your credentials.
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Ah, just found it, no surprise there, back then he was a dietician.
Edit: so he has been qualified for about 6-7 years.
 
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A number of posts have been deleted for derailing the thread and and making unnecessary comments about another member. If you disagree with a member, please reply politely and constructively on the thread, or take it to PM if the discussion would derail the thread.

Any further such posts will be deleted and may incur additional sanctions.

Thanks.
 
Sean_Raymond said:
Well done on finding something that works for you. I never said fat causes insulin resistance but that fat has been shown to blunt the bodies response to insulin - an acute insulin resistant effect. I cannot speak for your experience but insulin itself isn't the cause of weight gain/adiposity and reducing its levels per se will not be the reason a person loses weight.
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My experience is that on a low carb higher fat, higher protein (so an overall calorie increase) way of eating I lost weight after ( and I mean after not simultaneously) my Blood Glucose started dropping. I'm aware that some of this weight loss was water - but here I am with a BMI of 22 compared with 26 and an HbA1C of 37 versus 53.
I know I'm not the only one this happened with. I would match our personal experience against your purely theoretical knowledge any time!
 
All, just as a reminder, there is a formal process for any member claiming HCP status on the forum, which involves verification by DCUK Head Office.

That process has been followed in this case.

All verified HCPs posting on the forum do so in a personal capacity.



Edited to insert missing word.
 
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I would echo @ianf0ster. After following a low carb higher fat higher protein way of eating I lost 5 stone in weight and 8 inches off my waist which I doubt could all have been all water.
I have absolutely no idea of the mechanism as to how that happened (school science was a long time ago and I am not sure that any part of this was covered then) but what I am certain about is that it happened to me.
There are numerous others on here who can say the same thing.
I also know that many HCP's are very sceptical of it even when presented with the living proof during a consultation as many on here can attest to.
I am off all diabetes meds, my HbA1c is down to the low 30's from 98 I have gone from 15+migraine days a month to 0 in 12 months so however it works all I know and care about is that it does work and is sustainable over the years I have left in this life.
 
Bildad said:
I would echo @ianf0ster. After following a low carb higher fat higher protein way of eating I lost 5 stone in weight and 8 inches off my waist which I doubt could all have been all water.
I have absolutely no idea of the mechanism as to how that happened (school science was a long time ago and I am not sure that any part of this was covered then) but what I am certain about is that it happened to me.
There are numerous others on here who can say the same thing.
I also know that many HCP's are very sceptical of it even when presented with the living proof during a consultation as many on here can attest to.
I am off all diabetes meds, my HbA1c is down to the low 30's from 98 I have gone from 15+migraine days a month to 0 in 12 months so however it works all I know and care about is that it does work and is sustainable over the years I have left in this life.
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Unfortunately some colleagues, especially older ones, do see low carbohydrate diets as scary. partly due to them apparently going against prevailing dogma (high fat, low carbs/fibre etc) and the fact little training or guidance is given on them. I cannot say what current students are learning.

A low carbohydrate certainly can help - the posters on here are a testament to that. Nothing I have said challenges this so I'll repeat that I do not understand why some are so hostile here. Reading about the success you have had is just fantastic and I am so pleased for you.

I have pointed out that the reasons for weight gain/weight loss (i.e insulin/carbs) does not stack up with the evidence and not one person has provided even 1 study to show reduction of insulin causes weight loss independent of calories.

The point may seem mute because if the diets work then they work. However, it is important, certainly for people who work clinically such as myself to understand the cause of a pathology and why something works or doesn't. Without establishing this then erroneous ideas can become planted as fact with the wrong things blamed. I am very happy to be shown that Insulin really does do what the Jason Fungs of the world claim as I am only interested in how, why and of course, what works so I can help.
 
lucylocket61 said:
I remember a similar discussion with this op a couple of years ago. It was unproductive then, so I will bow out of this rehash.

@Sean_Raymond you never did share, even then, what sort of HCP you are or your credentials.
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It was mentioned previously however I am not pulling rank on my qualifications, I have not brought them up or questioned anyone elses credentials so I do not see the relevance of it especially as I know the response.
 
lucylocket61 said:
I remember a similar discussion with this op a couple of years ago. It was unproductive then, so I will bow out of this rehash.

@Sean_Raymond you never did share, even then, what sort of HCP you are or your credentials.[/
bulkbiker said:
After 4 weeks I'm not surprised. Ketogenic adaptation and especially the process of becoming a true fat burner can take up to 2 or 3 months and that's when fat starts to disappear. The initial loss is water weight and little to do with insulin that comes later.

Still wondering what kind of HCP you are who is willing to dismiss an associate professor at a university out of hand.

https://bikmanlab.byu.edu/LabMembers/PrincipalInvestigator.aspx
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I repeat that the discussion is not about keto diets but whether reducing insulin makes you fat.

I am not arguing against the Dr's qualification but much of what he says about insulin.
 
bulkbiker said:
why? for academics maybe. for those of us with improved health its certainly of less importance.
I'd far rather be healthy personally.

This is the disagreement I have with many researchers who seem to think that "winning the argument" is more beneficial than making people better.
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I am only interested in helping make people better. You are attributing things to me that are not true. Such as 'winning' an argument. That is a mischaracterisation of the dialogue we are having. I asked you for evidence to prove what you are saying and you didn't do it. Which is fine but I am happy to see anything that better informs me no matter if it means what I thought I knew I find I didn't The people giving everyone replies to me 'winner' tags seem to be the ones you should direct that comment at.
 
ianf0ster said:
My experience is that on a low carb higher fat, higher protein (so an overall calorie increase) way of eating I lost weight after ( and I mean after not simultaneously) my Blood Glucose started dropping. I'm aware that some of this weight loss was water - but here I am with a BMI of 22 compared with 26 and an HbA1C of 37 versus 53.
I know I'm not the only one this happened with. I would match our personal experience against your purely theoretical knowledge any time!
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My experience with hundreds of people are not theoretical neither are my own personal dietary experiments.
 
You have made statements such as that concerning a low carb diet also being low calorie, when for many of us the reverse is true. Yes it is impossible - but it is our personal experience, backed up by our weighing scales, both kitchen and bathroom, and the maths of it all.
 
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