Have I completely sabotaged myself?

[Nanny_B]

Hi, was diagnosed T2 in 2017 and at first I did everything right, changed my diet, lost weight, and got my hba1c down from 94 to 44. Then it all just fell apart. For the last three years I’ve fallen off the wagon so many times, with periods of getting back on and doing what I should be doing. However, during the whole of lockdown I’ve been eating and drinking like a thing possessed.I knew I was sabotaging myself but just couldn’t seem to do anything about it.
My business has suffered massively due to lockdown and I had to take on another job to see me through.during this whole time I have not checked my bloods.
So last week after feeling continually tired, lethargic etc for so long, I decided that I really do need to take charge of myself and start to get to grips with it all. So for the last 7 days I have been back on keto and have drastically cut carbs to 20g or below.
The problem is my blood sugar levels are not dropping below 11 and show anything between that and 15. ( test strips in date) I’m really scared I’ve done long lasting damage and will have to go on to insulin. Can anyone advise approx how long it takes to start seeing normal blood sugar levels again?

 

[Ronancastled]

Can anyone advise approx how long it takes to start seeing normal blood sugar levels again?

You've really been through the ringer, I feel for you.

Good news, you've done this before, you have the tools & with keto you're already on the right path.
How long were you initially in remission ?
We now know it can take 12 months post remission for your beta cells to heal.
Perhaps your reintroducing of carbs took you back over the tipping point.
How has your weight & exercise faired over this period.

My advice is to stay low carb, lose weight & up your exercise.
This process will take months to achieve your goals but is so worth it.

You could ask for a fasting insulin or GAD test to rule out a slow onset T1 but I don't believe that's likely.

Good luck, you've got this.

 

[Nanny_B]

Thank you so much for your reply. My weight has slowly crept up since I first dropped about 21lbs back in 2017 but has stayed pretty constant for months. I need to lose 2 stone to feel good about myself again. Exercise has never been a fave activity for me! I am pushing myself to get out and walk briskly though. Im just concerned my blood sugars wont come back down...ever!

 

[bulkbiker]

Thought of a fast for a couple of days to kick start your progress?

 

[Nanny_B]

Im not sure if a couple of days will be good...I have to drive for my job. I don't want to be passing out at the wheel! I could try a day and see if that helps to start bring them down?

 

[bulkbiker]

Im not sure if a couple of days will be good...I have to drive for my job. I don't want to be passing out at the wheel! I could try a day and see if that helps to start bring them down?

Any non triggering of insulin production will likely help. So yes maybe eat dinner then see how long you can go without food (I use coffee with double cream as a "fasting crutch").

 

[Nanny_B]

Any non triggering of insulin production will likely help. So yes maybe eat dinner then see how long you can go without food (I use coffee with double cream as a "fasting crutch").

Thank you so much for your advice. Im going to try that and see what happens!

 

[lucylocket61]

Every day is a new day. It might take a few weeks to get your blood sugar levels down enough. You are doing the right thing and going in the right direction.

Well done for getting back on the wagon.

 

[Brunneria]

Hi @Nanny_B

From what I have seen here on the forum, and experience of my own, it seems as though the more times, and the longer we ‘fall off the wagon’, then the harder it can be to get back on. That is certainly my own experience. I think the difficulty can be as much emotional/psychological as physical, but it is one of the reasons that I really try hard not to yoyo with my carb control. Sometimes, when we get back to low carbing, we need to be stricter and more systematic to get the same benefits.

Additionally, if you are someone who gets carb cravings, then avoiding having to go through all that again is good motivation for me!

having said that, we have members here on the forum with T2 who have been on insulin for years, but still manage to improve their way of eating and lifestyle (sometimes including weight loss) to the extent of reducing or even eliminating their diabetes medication.

So it is never to late.

 

[Nanny_B]

Every day is a new day. It might take a few weeks to get your blood sugar levels down enough. You are doing the right thing and going in the right direction.

Well done for getting back on the wagon.

Thank you so much, I’m so grateful to you all for helping and making me feel like in not alone x

 

[Nanny_B]

Hi @Nanny_B

From what I have seen here on the forum, and experience of my own, it seems as though the more times, and the longer we ‘fall off the wagon’, then the harder it can be to get back on. That is certainly my own experience. I think the difficulty can be as much emotional/psychological as physical, but it is one of the reasons that I really try hard not to yoyo with my carb control. Sometimes, when we get back to low carbing, we need to be stricter and more systematic to get the same benefits.

Additionally, if you are someone who gets carb cravings, then avoiding having to go through all that again is good motivation for me!

having said that, we have members here on the forum with T2 who have been on insulin for years, but still manage to improve their way of eating and lifestyle (sometimes including weight loss) to the extent of reducing or even eliminating their diabetes medication.

So it is never to late.

That’s so encouraging, thank you. My dream is to get back to the low 40’s on my hba1c levels. I’ve scared myself this time with high blood sugars still after a week of getting back on low carb. Praying that I’ve learnt my lesson and that I can stay on track. It’s so hard though!

 

[Brunneria]

You've really been through the ringer, I feel for you.

Good news, you've done this before, you have the tools & with keto you're already on the right path.
How long were you initially in remission ?
We now know it can take 12 months post remission for your beta cells to heal.
Perhaps your reintroducing of carbs took you back over the tipping point.
How has your weight & exercise faired over this period.

My advice is to stay low carb, lose weight & up your exercise.
This process will take months to achieve your goals but is so worth it.

You could ask for a fasting insulin or GAD test to rule out a slow onset T1 but I don't believe that's likely.

Good luck, you've got this.

Hi @Ronancastled

I really do applaud your success in putting your T2 into ‘remission’, but you have been making some really strong statements about beta cell healing on a few threads lately.

its very important, when making claims like this, to give appropriate references, and to specify which type of diabetes is being mentioned (because not all types can even hope for ‘remission’). And it is also important to explain the conditions and expectations involved.

My understanding is that there is actually very little evidence of beta cells ‘healing’ in humans, though recent studies and investigations are ongoing. More examples can be found in young lab mice (which cannot, of course, be extrapolated across to humans). In the human examples, very specific circumstances are required, and the benefits have not yet been shown to be long term.

So could you please provide references when you make that claim, so members can examine the evidence and circumstances, and make up their own minds? I am certainly interested in seeing the basis of your statement that beta cells heal in up to 12 months.

 

[Ronancastled]

Hi @Ronancastled

I really do applaud your success in putting your T2 into ‘remission’, but you have been making some really strong statements about beta cell healing on a few threads lately.

its very important, when making claims like this, to give appropriate references, and to specify which type of diabetes is being mentioned (because not all types can even hope for ‘remission’). And it is also important to explain the conditions and expectations involved.


So could you please provide references when you make that claim, so members can examine the evidence and circumstances, and make up their own minds? I am certainly interested in seeing the basis of your statement that beta cells heal in up to 12 months.

Hi @Ronancastled

I really do applaud your success in putting your T2 into ‘remission’, but you have been making some really strong statements about beta cell healing on a few threads lately.

its very important, when making claims like this, to give appropriate references, and to specify which type of diabetes is being mentioned (because not all types can even hope for ‘remission’). And it is also important to explain the conditions and expectations involved.

My understanding is that there is actually very little evidence of beta cells ‘healing’ in humans, though recent studies and investigations are ongoing. More examples can be found in young lab mice (which cannot, of course, be extrapolated across to humans). In the human examples, very specific circumstances are required, and the benefits have not yet been shown to be long term.

So could you please provide references when you make that claim, so members can examine the evidence and circumstances, and make up their own minds? I am certainly interested in seeing the basis of your statement that beta cells heal in up to 12 months.

The facts come from the Prof Roy Taylor 2 year follow up to the Direct Study for T2s with continued remission.

Covered here although I've quoted it in many other threads.
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/th...two-years-full-recovery-of-beta-cells.171900/

References you require in that thread too.
Bottom line is that at 12 months post remission the 2nd phase insulin secretion rate is comparable to that of non diabetic cohort of equivalent age and weight.

I can get further into this in the thread I've copied if you prefer. Bottom line is a great beacon of hope.

 

[Brunneria]

The facts come from the Prof Roy Taylor 2 year follow up to the Direct Study for T2s with continued remission.

Covered here although I've quoted it in many other threads.
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/th...two-years-full-recovery-of-beta-cells.171900/

References you require in that thread too.
Bottom line is that at 12 months post remission the 2nd phase insulin secretion rate is comparable to that of non diabetic cohort of equivalent age and weight.

I can get further into this in the thread I've copied if you prefer. Bottom line is a great beacon of hope.

Thank you.
That was just on type 2 diabetics, who had undergone significant weight loss, and is of unknown duration (because not enough time has passed to make long term claims). And from what I can remember of Taylor’s work, he only has a minority % who see the benefit of remission, decreasing over time.

I agree with you that this information can be considered a beacon of hope to those T2s who are in a position to (and wish to) follow the Newcastle Diet protocols, and who are able to maintain the significant weight loss over future years - which is obviously not every T2. This ‘beacon’ is most definitely not applicable to the other types of diabetes, so please bear these significant limitations in mind when you post, and provide references when you make claims like this:

We now know it can take 12 months post remission for your beta cells to heal.

 

[Antje77]

Bottom line is that at 12 months post remission the 2nd phase insulin secretion rate is comparable to that of non diabetic cohort of equivalent age and weight.

This refers to diabetics who before those 12 monts had low insulin production. There is no way of knowing our insulin production without lab tests, so there is no way of knowing if this applies here. Your post is highly suggestive of diagnosing the opening poster with low insulin production, which may not be the case at all.

@Nanny_B , I wish you all the best with staying on the wagon!
Do you know what has triggered you in the past to fall off? Is there some strategy that could help you prevent this happening again? Or making it easier for you to get back on after a one-off mistake?

I’m really scared I’ve done long lasting damage and will have to go on to insulin.

Are you on any medication for your diabetes at the moment? If not, insulin won't be the next port of call by a long way. Have you had any appointments or blood tests for your diabetes lately?

 

[Ronancastled]

@Brunneria @Antje77
I'll agree to disagree with both of you about my postings.

There are many posters on Reddit and Twitter, some of whom I correspond with, who have found significant weight loss their magic bullet. Although the paths to diabetes can be multifactorial there are a subset where it's purely down to visceral fat. All I wish to do is present my own experience as a possible pathway to remission.

There is an issue on Reddit where posters are warned off posting about reversal or remission. The long term members are all Keto advocates who have never been lucky enough to reintroduce carbs. I would implore you not to let this place become a carb hating echo chamber, there are other ways that work for some.

Having said all that I'll take a break from posting for a while. Might be in both our interests.

 

[Resurgam]

The problem is my blood sugar levels are not dropping below 11 and show anything between that and 15. ( test strips in date) I’m really scared I’ve done long lasting damage and will have to go on to insulin. Can anyone advise approx how long it takes to start seeing normal blood sugar levels again?

I don't think that anyone can - it all depends on when things start to sort themselves out.
When I was diagnosed I went two days eating just protein and fat - and not all that much. I had a steak one day and a pork shop the next - then on the third day a small salad with chicken, I think - no food which required insulin - but after a while I began to feel wobbly - I had burned through the stores of easily accessed glucose and now my metabolism had to face up to unloading stores from elsewhere. That did take weeks rather than days. A warm drink and three grapes sorted out the unpleasant effects, and in 80 days I was no longer in the diabetic range, and at the top end of normal at 6 months.
Over the years I was constantly pushed to abandon the low carb Atkins diet as it was next thing to Devil worship, and to embrace a high carb diet - it went on for decades, so I am not all that sure that you will have done damage to yourself, though the only thing to do is keep trying to put things right again and see what happens.
You will have considerable stores to unload, as I did - after years on a 'cholesterol lowering' diet I was almost spherical - but I now have lost 12 inches of my waistline and reached the age of 70, so there is hope for almost everyone, I think.

 

[Brunneria]

@Brunneria @Antje77
I'll agree to disagree with both of you about my postings.

There are many posters on Reddit and Twitter, some of whom I correspond with, who have found significant weight loss their magic bullet. Although the paths to diabetes can be multifactorial there are a subset where it's purely down to visceral fat. All I wish to do is present my own experience as a possible pathway to remission.

There is an issue on Reddit where posters are warned off posting about reversal or remission. The long term members are all Keto advocates who have never been lucky enough to reintroduce carbs. I would implore you not to let this place become a carb hating echo chamber, there are other ways that work for some.

Having said all that I'll take a break from posting for a while. Might be in both our interests.

You seem to have completely misunderstood my posts.
Both were intended to encourage you to use facts and references, rather than rhetoric, and to make you cautious about applying universal statements.

This forum has, for years, encouraged open discussion of the many different treatments available to the various different types of diabetic. We have entire sub forums that cheerfully and comprehensively discuss keto and low carb (as well as other ways of eating). We also have many threads, going back years, discussing the pros and cons of Taylor’s Newcastle Diet studies and 800 cal diets.

However, we do like any claims and categoric statements to be accompanied by reputable references, so that they can be discussed in detail by our members. And it is always good when the original poster gets responses that help with their query.

ed. For typos.

 

[searley]

I’m T1 so a little different but I’ve fallen off the wagon more than once

I’m a comfort eater and whilst I keep nothing in the house to easily snack on.. the village shop is less than a hundred yards away

Just yesterday I has a falling out with someone and the first thing I did was goto the corner shop and buy all the munchies I could… sat in front of the TV and stuffed them all then topped it off with a hot chocolate.

So I’m not surprised people have fallen off the wagon over the last 12 months.

However I would have thought and significant long term damage would have been done in only 8 to 12 months.

So try and get back on track.. if you can’t without help go see the gp even if it means medication for a short while then so be it…. Some of the meds like bydureon also act as an appetite suppressant and bydureon the should take you off when you have a normal BMI

One thing is for certain though.. better control will reduce the risk of longer term damage .. so it’s never too late to try

 

[Nanny_B]

This refers to diabetics who before those 12 monts had low insulin production. There is no way of knowing our insulin production without lab tests, so there is no way of knowing if this applies here. Your post is highly suggestive of diagnosing the opening poster with low insulin production, which may not be the case at all.

@Nanny_B , I wish you all the best with staying on the wagon!
Do you know what has triggered you in the past to fall off? Is there some strategy that could help you prevent this happening again? Or making it easier for you to get back on after a one-off mistake?

Are you on any medication for your diabetes at the moment? If not, insulin won't be the next port of call by a long way. Have you had any appointments or blood tests for your diabetes lately?

Hi, I honestly don’t know why I keep doing it! It’s like, I get good results from my hba1c and then think, oh a week off won’t matter and I go back to eating all the bad foods! I take 4 x 500mg metformin daily, plus atorvastatin once nightly.
Thank you for your reassurance re the insulin.I’m due to go for my next hba1c test but I know the results will be high