Have You Watched Ted Naiman's New Presentation, "too Much Protein Is Better Than Too Little" Yet?

[Winnie53]

zand, one way to begin evaluating what happened to you is to look at all your lab work in the five to ten years prior to your loss of kidney function. That may or may not provide insight, but it might be worth looking at. A friend of mine is going through this right now so I've spent a lot of time learning about kidney disease. In her case, the damage was not due to protein intake, it was due to loosely controlled type 2 diabetes with medication and insulin and intake of carbohydrate in the form of processed foods over a very long period of time. Nothing makes me sadder than seeing loss of function due to diabetes. Kidney disease, unfortunately, is not reversible.

Another thing to look at in your medical records is a history of hypertension.

 

[zand]

zand, one way to begin evaluating what happened to you is to look at all your lab work in the five to ten years prior to your loss of kidney function. That may or may not provide insight, but it might be worth looking at. A friend of mine is going through this right now so I've spent a lot of time learning about kidney disease. In her case, the damage was not due to protein intake, it was due to loosely controlled type 2 diabetes with medication and insulin and intake of carbohydrate in the form of processed foods over a very long period of time. Nothing makes me sadder than seeing loss of function due to diabetes. Kidney disease, unfortunately, is not reversible.

Another thing to look at in your medical records is a history of hypertension.

I hadn't had much lab work done at that point. My kidney function approx. 5 years before that was fine. I now know I had a fatty liver back then, but wasn't told of this until much later on. That's all I have to go on.

I wasn't diagnosed T2 until about 5 years after that. I was trying to low carb simply to lose weight. I had a lot of processed foods until about 3 years prior to the high BP incident, but had been eating fairly healthily for the 3 years before it. My BP was rising steadily with my weight, that was why I was trying to lose weight. I lost about 7 pounds in the 6 weeks prior to the high BP incident due to reduced carbs, so wasn't expecting my BP to have risen at all. I went to my GP with severe pains in my neck (which I thought were due to an old whiplash injury flaring up yet again.) The GP said my neck hurt because both veins were due to burst/cause a stroke due to extremely high BP.

My kidney function since reducing protein has always been >90% which is why I think the protein caused the kidney problem and the high BP.

I am not sure that what you say about kidney disease being irreversible is always entirely true. My friend (not diabetic) had a kidney function of 32% and was seeing a consultant every 3 months, who said they couldn't do anything about it, but would monitor it in case she got a point where she needed dialysis. I suggested that my friend go to see my naturopath for dietary advice. Now 2 years later her kidney function has improved to 50% and the consultant only wants to see her annually.

 

[zand]

zand, Brian Mowll, who hosts the annual Diabetes Summit, just started a podcast a few weeks ago. This week he interviewed Will Cole, whose book releases in the US on August 28th,

Ketotarian: The (Mostly) Plant-Based Plan to Burn Fat, Boost Your Energy, Crush Your Cravings, and Calm Inflammation

If you have iTunes, you can listen to the podcast here... Click here now to listen (It's the "Mastering Blood Sugar by Dr. Brian Mowll" podcast).

I'm going there now to listen to it. For a variety of reasons, some do better on a plant based diet, so curious as to what he has to say.

Only just noticed this post. I was thinking of starting my own thread asking for help because I feel I need to lower carb intake , but am that not keen on meat, although I am not a vegetarian. You may have just saved me the bother.

 

[Winnie53]

zand, thank you for your reply. I'm at work now, will try to briefly respond on my lunch break. This is a very important topic. And there's so much misinformation out there about kidney disease. My friend is working with a naturopath and a kidney specialist. It's a good discussion to have. Another thing to look at is medication history. Ibuprofen is bad for kidneys. Will try to find a link tonight.

 

[Winnie53]

Okay, still looking for links on risk to kidneys when taking ibuprofen (and other NSAIDS). This quote should get everyone's attention:

"According to the National Kidney Foundation, as many as 3 percent to 5 percent of new cases of chronic kidney failure each year may be caused by the overuse of these painkillers. Once kidney disease occurs, continued use of the problem drug makes it worse."

Here's two links...

https://www.kidney.org/news/kidneyCare/winter10/MedicinesForPain

https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2017/05/22/can-you-wreck-your-kidneys-with-nsaid-pain-relievers/

And after reading this, I have lost further respect for Harvard. This article reads like an advertisement for the pharmaceutical industry, and it angers me because I know two people now who have been harmed by OTC medications: one had to have a liver transplant after taking too much Tylenol while alone and battling a fever with the flu in her 30's; the other worsened her chronic kidney disease after her doctor would no longer prescribe pain medications and had her take ibuprofen instead in her 60's...

https://www.health.harvard.edu/pain/12-things-you-should-know-about-pain-relievers

 

[ghost_whistler]

Without knowing how much protein he's talking about this is meaningless. You could make the same argument with 10g a protain a day compared to 70g.

 

[Indy51]

I don't know why everything has to be so complicated. Eat protein to satiety, then add whatever veg you like, plus fat if the protein isn't fatty enough for your taste. Why analyse everything to the nth degree?

 

[ghost_whistler]

I don't know why everything has to be so complicated. Eat protein to satiety, then add whatever veg you like, plus fat if the protein isn't fatty enough for your taste. Why analyse everything to the nth degree?

no one is making anything complicated, I've no idea why you've posted this

 

[Winnie53]

Without knowing how much protein he's talking about this is meaningless. You could make the same argument with 10g a protein a day compared to 70g.

@ghost_whistler, I thought your question had been answered in a previous post. He's saying 120 g protein a day, 30 g more or 30 g less given body size and level of physical activity. More specifically, he's stating 30% - 35% of caloric intake.

@Indy51 your point is well taken. I think I got into trouble with protein by not eating what my body wanted. I intentionally reduced my protein intake after listening to Ron Rosedale, M.D.'s m-Tor presentations, which I now think was a mistake. I feel better eating 92 g protein today which is 30% of my caloric intake. And because I don't drink bone broth, I'm now trying to eat meat cooked with it's bones. I think that's helping too.

One of the things I found interesting about the research that Dr. Naiman reviewed was that when rats were allowed to choose how much carbs, fat, and protein to eat, they ate the ratio they needed. It appears that all living things do this, except perhaps us because we're constantly subjected to conflicting research results.

@ghost_whistler I hope you get an opportunity to listen to Dr. Naiman's 2018 lecture on the Diet Doctor website. It's a lot to take in the first time, but by listening to his other interviews too, then going back to listen to the new lecture on Diet Doctor, I think he makes a strong argument for eating 30% - 35% protein. That said, we each need to do what works best for us. We're all highly individual.

 

[ghost_whistler]

Thanks.

I would like to listen to it, is it on youtube or just that site?

I find Rosedale's limits just completely impractical personally.

120g a protein isn't huge, IMO. Many people who eat zero carb, for instance, seem to eat that and more.

 

[ghost_whistler]

zand, thank you for sharing your cautionary experience. Hypertension can be deadly. I do not have hypertension, though my husband does, so I agree, it needs to be monitored and managed. Here in the US, many pharmacies have a machine where you can take your blood pressure. Do you all have that in the UK too? I need to get back in the habit of checking it, though I've never been higher than 145/80, and it dropped into the normal range, 110/70, after I switched to the low carbohydrate diet and lost 26 pounds. What you describe is scary. I'm so glad you didn't have a stroke. I wish I had a better understanding of why that happened to you. I just did a quick search and you're right, water intake needs to be increased when protein is increased. I think I've heard that 5% of the population have hypertension due to a sensitivity to sodium. Dehydration could only make that worse.

Thanks for the reminder. I've gained back 13 pounds over the last two and a half years, and my responsibilities at work have increased so I need to see where my blood pressure is right now, and continue to monitor it. Lab tests alone aren't enough to monitor health.

I had to listen to all available presentations and interviews to understand what Dr. Naiman's doing personally for himself and with his patients so I think I can clarify how much protein he's recommending: 30% to 35% protein of daily calories or 30 g more or less than 120 g based on body size - (90 g if a small woman, 120 g if a large man).

In addition, he's eating a nutrient dense, fiber rich diet that includes above ground vegetables, no grains or sugar, exercising, keeping his carbohydrate intake under 50 g carbs to maintain ketosis, and is eating healthy fats in amounts needed to support his daily energy needs and to maintain his weight. For those wishing to lose weight, fat intake is temporarily lessened so the body is burning its fat reserves.

I'm not sure what to think about this, but his review of the research on protein intake is compelling enough for me to try it.

My lean body mass is 100 pounds. (I know this only because I was a skinny kid and young adult. In my early 30's, I began gaining weight and peaked at 180 pounds). My goal is to eat 90 g protein a day. Here's what I eat on a typical day...

Breakfast: 2 slices bacon, 2 eggs, onion, cauliflower, broccoli, mushrooms, gouda cheese with black tea, water, and a small side of fruit/berries.

Lunch: chicken thigh, an ounce of almonds or pecans, medium carrot or a side of kale salad with green tea, water, and a small side of fruit/berries.

Dinner: beef, chicken, or pork, sometimes salmon, a variety of vegetables sauted in butter, with water, sometimes red wine, and a small side of fruit/berries, followed by a cup of chamomile tea.

I include fat with all meals and also eat small amounts of chocolate. I also eat small amounts of root vegetables a few times a week.

I walk 3 to 5 days a week.

To maintain adequate hydration, I carry water everywhere with me in stainless steel containers. I try to drink a cup of water for every cup of tea. When I'm switching over from low carb to ketosis, I drink a cup of hot water with a 1/2 teaspoon of salt every three days or so.

That amounts to 92 protein a day.

I thought increasing my protein intake would be harder. All I changed was eating 2 eggs instead of 1, eating 2 strips of bacon instead of 1 1/2, added meat back into my daily lunch, and increased my meat intake at dinner by an ounce.

Now that I have an android phone, I need to get My Fitness Pal and learn how to use it so I can figure out my macro percentages.

Does he state a reason for eating a lot of fibre?

 

[Winnie53]

He's promoting an nutrient dense diet that includes eating low carb, above ground vegetables, green plant foods too, which I believe he stated are higher in protein. He also talks about how our ancestral diet was much higher in fiber than what we eat today, so perhaps that's another reason.

For me personally, I'm trying to get as much fiber and nutrition possible from the lower carb, above ground plant foods in addition to the healthy protein and fat I eat. Fiber is also needed to feed and nourish the healthy microbes in our microbiome, which is another reason I include these foods in my diet.

All that said, for some people, fiber is a problem. I know because I've had two active flares of inflammatory bowel disease. I'm lucky though. I was able to get back into remission each time using the specific carbohydrate diet (SCD), so I'm not limited in the foods that I can eat. Well I can't eat gluten, but that's not a problem at all.

I eat fat, protein, above ground vegetables, and a limited amount of tubers, fruit, and berries at every meal.

If you do a google search and a YouTube search on "Ted Naiman", you should find other lectures by him.

 

[Alexandra100]

It was just added to DietDoctor.com a few days ago.

I was so shocked by it, I needed a day to process what he said, then I spent the next couple of days listening to all his other presentations.

I think I'm going to give what he's suggesting a try.

I should add that he is a physician who practices a few hours from me and he has been teaching his patients how to do the low carb ketogenic diet to manage their diabetes and for weight loss for 20 years. Interestingly, he also was a vegetarian up until his mid to late 20's. He believes both diets work if done properly, but believes the low carb ketogenic diet works better.

This is SO interesting and important - thank-you for posting. I listen to Dr Bernstein's Teleseminars each month and he constantly expresses his concern that due to the fashion (my word) for High Fat people are eating too little protein, especially those who are active and even athletic, and even more importantly, parents are feeding their diabetic children too little p;rotein and stunting their growth.

 

[Alexandra100]

The reality is if you take someone who is type 2 diabetic and feed them more protein, their blood sugar actually goes down and their 24 hour glucose [?] goes down about 40% if you double their protein intake. So honestly, eating more protein for a diabetic will lower their overall blood sugar.

I wish! If this is true then my suspicion that I am actually pre-LADA rather than pre-T2 is confirmed, because I quite often eat very low carb high protein meals and my bg does go up afterwards. I would be fascinated to read about other people's experience.

 

[ghost_whistler]

He's promoting an nutrient dense diet that includes eating low carb, above ground vegetables, green plant foods too, which I believe he stated are higher in protein. He also talks about how our ancestral diet was much higher in fiber than what we eat today, so perhaps that's another reason.

For me personally, I'm trying to get as much fiber and nutrition possible from the lower carb, above ground plant foods in addition to the healthy protein and fat I eat. Fiber is also needed to feed and nourish the healthy microbes in our microbiome, which is another reason I include these foods in my diet.

All that said, for some people, fiber is a problem. I know because I've had two active flares of inflammatory bowel disease. I'm lucky though. I was able to get back into remission each time using the specific carbohydrate diet (SCD), so I'm not limited in the foods that I can eat. Well I can't eat gluten, but that's not a problem at all.

I eat fat, protein, above ground vegetables, and a limited amount of tubers, fruit, and berries at every meal.

If you do a google search and a YouTube search on "Ted Naiman", you should find other lectures by him.

I don't know how you could claim our ancestral diet was higher in fibre, we;d have to have eaten huge amounts of spinach or broccoli. Maybe some nuts, depending where you lived. Most fibre rich food today is fortified

 

[Indy51]

I think I got into trouble with protein by not eating what my body wanted. I intentionally reduced my protein intake

I think you may have your answer right there. Of all the macros, protein seems to be self-limiting (unless deliberately distorted by swallowing liquid protein shakes) and almost impossible to over-eat. I remember listening to an interview with protein researcher, Dr Donald Layman very early on in my diagnosis - his advice is to eat a minimum of 30g protein at each meal. Seems to have worked pretty well for me, so I've tried to follow the advice by making protein the main focus of my meals. I even tend to eat the protein first - I think it stops me over-eating other things.

 

[Winnie53]

@Alexandra100 you weigh what I weighed in high school and I'm 5" shorter. What guidance has our more seasoned forum members offered you?

By the way, what is AF? Atrial fibrillation or something else?

I'm a fan of Bernstein too.

 

[Indy51]

no one is making anything complicated, I've no idea why you've posted this

Sorry, I let my grumpiness get the better of me. I sometimes find it frustrating the way humans have a tendency to analyse and nitpick things to death. I've been noticing even more of it on the forum of late - or maybe that's just my grumpiness talking. I fear when people get bogged down in the minutiae of how many grams of this, how much exercise, etc. that it takes away from the fairly simple message of "reduce carbs as much as possible". Beyond that, it can get very esoteric and maybe even confusing - and even lead to the dire state of "analysis paralysis" - people don't know who to believe anymore so they end up doing nothing

 

[Winnie53]

I don't know how you could claim our ancestral diet was higher in fibre, we;d have to have eaten huge amounts of spinach or broccoli. Maybe some nuts, depending where you lived. Most fibre rich food today is fortified

@ghost_whistler, this presentation from 2009 may answer your questions about the ancestral diet...

I haven't watched it yet. May do so tonight. In general, I find it difficult to get more than 20 - 30 grams of fiber a day eating vegetables because I don't eat grains, and greatly limit legumes, tubers, and fruit. I've heard, not sure where, that our ancestors ate closer to 100 - 150 grams of fiber a day. Keep in mind that the plants we ate then as compared to now were very different. Perhaps someone else will come along and answer your question.

 

[Indy51]

our ancestors ate closer to 100 - 150 grams of fiber a day

I think that is very much a matter of where they lived. For people near the equator, it's probably accurate. Not so sure about Ice Age Europeans though.