Hunger Pangs

[ghost_whistler]

I'm still thinking you are eating too much!!! Setting off all kinds of hormone reactions. That's why fasting works so well for some people. I'm not suggesting fasting but eating 'enormous' amounts of food isnt good for anyone and surely is spiking insulin and leptin. Like azure, I like to eat every few hours but very small meals. Half an avocado and a slice of turkey size. Then 3-4 pecans a few hours later. Maybe a few olives.
Until you bring your insulin and leptin levels down the hunger most likely will not go away. Eat a normal meal. I small piece of chicken and some veggies and be done with it. Remember, protein spikes insulin and leptin almost as much as carbs so to be keto you NEED to watch protein just as much. Maybe try a fat fast for a day or two. Avocado, a few raw vlc veggies in a mayo based dip, egg Yolk ( no whites) and mayo. Atkins website has fat fast ideas or just google it. You need to bring down insulin and leptin or I'm afraid nothing will change.

How would we know this? The keto orthodoxy tells me the opposite: i've even had someone tell me to go as far as 2700 calories by gorging myself on fat. I couldn't begin to imagine how much fat you'd need to eat to do that. I couldn't manage it, no matter how healthy fats turn out to be.

You could be right. I don't know. But i've tried all sorts of different nutrient ranges and none of them seem to make a difference. If this kind of hunger was a symptom of insulin and leptin resistance - which we haven't even established for certain - then why can't i find others who have similar experiences?

Isn't fat not supposed to spike insulin? How can my insulin be spiked if i'm insulin resistant, and if I am why have I experienced blood sugar crashes before? The recommended diet for fixing insulin resistance is this diet, so how can we know that is the cause of it as well?

Yes, too much protein can affect insulin, but what is the threshold?

I've been following the established macros because that is the only guide a newbie has on this diet, and it's what the community advocates above all else. So if the macros are throwing up values that cause these problems, why can't i find anyone else experiencing them?

I have no idea what's going on and following your example, which I don't doubt works for you, would mean following what appears to be an extreme level of calories. You are on less than 1000. I don't know if that's normal, I have no idea what your physical qualities are that might play a part. What I do know is that would put me at a huge deficit.

 

[azure]

Have we dealt with the carbs? If they were no longer an issue then I wouldn't be discussing this problem with hunger. The goalposts aren't shifting, i'm experiencing new problems and they need to be dealt with. I wasn't experiencing crippling night time hunger before, now I am. I don't know why, and no one i've spoken to in the keto communities on reddit, facebook and various other websites have a clear epxlanation why. Am I alone in this? Is my metabolism that unique? I can't imagine so.

It's not about a perfect diet, it's about fixing the problems I'm having right now, even if that means abandoning this diet.

In what way do you mean "deal with the carbs"?

Your final sentence - that's the key. Find what works for you and don't worry about whether it's keto or any other named diet. As long as you're feeling ok on it and are happy with it, that's all that matters.

 

[Kristin251]

You did find someone who experienced it. ME. I was starving when I ate big meals and more food. You certainly don't have to go as low cal as me but I think you're eating too much food and too big of meals.

How do we know??? Try it. Small 200-300 cal meals.

Protein levels should only be enough for maintenance and repair. 1 g per kg IDEAL body weight. Then add a few veggies and some fat to equal 300 Cal's. Then have a few nuts as snacks. Most women don't need ,ore than 1500 Cal's and many closer to 1200. Your choice but don't knock it til you tried it as the saying goes.

 

[ghost_whistler]

In what way do you mean "deal with the carbs"?

Your final sentence - that's the key. Find what works for you and don't worry about whether it's keto or any other named diet. As long as you're feeling ok on it and are happy with it, that's all that matters.

Yes, I'm trying to do this.

I may have boxed myself into a corner with keto because adding carbs back in isn't going to be easy. I couldn't even manage all of the lentils i cooked (only 7g carbs worth!). Maybe i'll try a carrot instead

 

[azure]

Maybe try something with more concentrated carbs and start off with a small amount? Perhaps sweet potato mashed? Milk? A small amount of rice?

 

[ghost_whistler]

You did find someone who experienced it. ME. I was starving when I ate big meals and more food. You certainly don't have to go as low cal as me but I think you're eating too much food and too big of meals.

How do we know??? Try it. Small 200-300 cal meals.

Protein levels should only be enough for maintenance and repair. 1 g per kg IDEAL body weight. Then add a few veggies and some fat to equal 300 Cal's. Then have a few nuts as snacks. Most women don't need ,ore than 1500 Cal's and many closer to 1200. Your choice but don't knock it til you tried it as the saying goes.

I'm not female.

What I'm trying to get across is not to say that you are wrong, but to point out that your experience is unusual and it is not in keeping with other people's advice from the keto community. So who to believe? 1000 calories is very low for almost anyone, but maybe keto works differently for women. Maybe women can tolerate a smaller diet. God knows, I have no idea, and that's the problem.

While this diet seems to work wonders for people, including you, and while I would never dream of taking that away, I have to talk from my perspective and deal with my problems on it. Unfortunately it's a community of people with no real consistent information base: i have you saying eat minimally, i have a great many others touting macros, and still more telling me not to be fat phobic and just guzzle fat like there's no tomorrow! Who's right?

And i tried eating a lower intake, granted not for a long time, but I felt no different. All i know is taht, whenever i eat, I have to eat enough to feel full (or sated, for me it's synonymous - i don't mean stuffed either) or i feel worse for having eaten. I can't explain it. Someone suggested I try removing the veg from my meals to eliminate all possibility of carbs and hidden carbs. I couldn't even get past breakfast: i ate some meat and felt very unfull and worse for it, so i went back and ate the veg i'd normally have eaten. That probably doesn't make sense.

I'm going back to the GP on wednesday, hopefully my blood test results will have returned by then from friday and maybe that will have some information. I've repeatedly asked for a referral to a dietitian, god knows when that will happen. I see an endocrinologist at the end of May. Maybe they can shed some light on this. It may be a faulty digestive system, an allergic reaction or heaven only knows. But these experiences of hunger need to be dealt with and I fear the only solution is to increase carbs and get out of ketosis.

 

[ghost_whistler]

Maybe try something with more concentrated carbs and start off with a small amount? Perhaps sweet potato mashed? Milk? A small amount of rice?

I thought lentils were slow carbs. But I didn't feel I could cope with the whole 50g.

 

[Kristin251]

I'm not female.

What I'm trying to get across is not to say that you are wrong, but to point out that your experience is unusual and it is not in keeping with other people's advice from the keto community. So who to believe? 1000 calories is very low for almost anyone, but maybe keto works differently for women. Maybe women can tolerate a smaller diet. God knows, I have no idea, and that's the problem.

While this diet seems to work wonders for people, including you, and while I would never dream of taking that away, I have to talk from my perspective and deal with my problems on it. Unfortunately it's a community of people with no real consistent information base: i have you saying eat minimally, i have a great many others touting macros, and still more telling me not to be fat phobic and just guzzle fat like there's no tomorrow! Who's right?

And i tried eating a lower intake, granted not for a long time, but I felt no different. All i know is taht, whenever i eat, I have to eat enough to feel full (or sated, for me it's synonymous - i don't mean stuffed either) or i feel worse for having eaten. I can't explain it. Someone suggested I try removing the veg from my meals to eliminate all possibility of carbs and hidden carbs. I couldn't even get past breakfast: i ate some meat and felt very unfull and worse for it, so i went back and ate the veg i'd normally have eaten. That probably doesn't make sense.

I'm going back to the GP on wednesday, hopefully my blood test results will have returned by then from friday and maybe that will have some information. I've repeatedly asked for a referral to a dietitian, god knows when that will happen. I see an endocrinologist at the end of May. Maybe they can shed some light on this. It may be a faulty digestive system, an allergic reaction or heaven only knows. But these experiences of hunger need to be dealt with and I fear the only solution is to increase carbs and get out of ketosis.

My apologies. Hard to know it's screen names.

I understand everything you're saying. Your points got across. People have different opinions as well as things that work and do t work. You seem to be doing the same thing over and over. If you don't change something nothing will change. Though you may find it odd that protein makes me hungry, it does. Maybe it does you too. You won't know until you try. It's also been mentioned by others as well as me to not eat protein and carbs for bf. Just fatty food. Some low carb nuts ( Macs) or avocado. In MY experience if I don't get bf right the whole day is messed and I can't wait to go to bed to get it over. I landed on a fatty bf and I don't get hungry. If you like avocado it's worth a try. You were told to limit veg for bf and even later. I do that too. I eat most veg at dinner. Once again, different foods act different at different times of day. Try bulletproof coffee for bf. Loads of people fast because bf sets them up for a bad day. I like food too much to fast but if I just had eggs and bacon I would be looking for more food. That would be fine for lunch and dinner but not bf.

The points we are trying to get across is you will see millions of different advice. What you're doing now isn't working so try something new!!! Get your macros right at different times of day. By that I mean fatty bf, salad with SOME protein and more fat, and dinner have most of your protein and veg. Sounds like it can't get much worse than it is now.

 

[azure]

I thought lentils were slow carbs. But I didn't feel I could cope with the whole 50g.

They are Sweet potato is pretty good too, as are oats (rough cut). Basmati rice is slower than other rices.The milk is faster but I suggested it as something you may be able to stomach and is easy to drink.

 

[AndBreathe]

I thought lentils were slow carbs. But I didn't feel I could cope with the whole 50g.

Did you measure your 50gr lentils uncooked, or cooked?

 

[paul5040]

This thread is making my bg rise, cant read any longer.

 

[Kristin251]

This thread is making my bg rise, cant read any longer.

Lol. I wasn't thinking the same thing. I've said MORE than all I can haha. I'm out

 

[ghost_whistler]

Did you measure your 50gr lentils uncooked, or cooked?

uncooked. I probably got through about 1g's worth of carb so i doubt it will make any difference and will likely wake up again at 1am with hunger.

 

[azure]

uncooked. I probably got through about 1g's worth of carb so i doubt it will make any difference and will likely wake up again at 1am with hunger.

Why could you not eat more lentils? That is, what made you stop before you'd finished your portion?

 

[ghost_whistler]

Why could you not eat more lentils? That is, what made you stop before you'd finished your portion?

I was feeling more hungry the more I ate, and it was making me feel tense. I've had a similar response in the past, when I ate roasted buckwheat for instance. I had always assumed it was carb sensitivity. I shall just have to try something else.

 

[Chook]

I'm very sensitive to carbs but I've never had anything like that. Yes, eating carbs makes me hungry but not actually while I'm eating them. You should discuss that with your GP.

I really do think you need physical and psychological help that this diabetes forum can't give you. Am I right in thinking your GP hasn't given you a diabetes diagnosis? And that you don't have the BG swings characteristic of RH?

 

[azure]

I was feeling more hungry the more I ate, and it was making me feel tense. I've had a similar response in the past, when I ate roasted buckwheat for instance. I had always assumed it was carb sensitivity. I shall just have to try something else.

The lentils were part of a meal with protein and fat, right?

As lentils are low GI they simply wouldn't have affected you physically so quickly. That suggests the feeling may be psychological. Again, that's not an insult or dismissal of your feelings.

Look - the bottom line is this:

- you doctor has previously ruled out diabetes;

- you've been suffering some symptoms that you attributed to RH but still got those symptoms when your blood sugar was high; - your reported results here show no sign of hypoglycaemia;

- you've talked about "blood sugar fluctuatiions" but the 'fluctuations' you reported here were not fluctuations at all;

- you have chosen to radically alter your diet by eating Keto but you're still having your symptoms and, moreover, the symptom of hunger has become significantly worse.


My advice is to speak to your counsellor about your anxiety related to your diet and your symptoms. A counsellor can't cure your physical symptoms necessarily but they can help the way you're thinking about things and help you refocus your energies.

Get out and do more with other people. That will help take your mind off your symptoms.

Eat normal balanced meals - not too big, not too small. Have snacks if that helps. Understand that some people feel hungrier than others and find a way to deal with that. While waiting for your Endo appointment, find other things to distract your mind.

NONE of that is meant to minimise your symptoms or their effect on you, but I really feel you need to take a step back and get some objective input on what seems to be an issue of far more than carbs/blood sugar.

 

[ghost_whistler]

My apologies. Hard to know it's screen names.

I understand everything you're saying. Your points got across. People have different opinions as well as things that work and do t work. You seem to be doing the same thing over and over. If you don't change something nothing will change. Though you may find it odd that protein makes me hungry, it does. Maybe it does you too. You won't know until you try. It's also been mentioned by others as well as me to not eat protein and carbs for bf. Just fatty food. Some low carb nuts ( Macs) or avocado. In MY experience if I don't get bf right the whole day is messed and I can't wait to go to bed to get it over. I landed on a fatty bf and I don't get hungry. If you like avocado it's worth a try. You were told to limit veg for bf and even later. I do that too. I eat most veg at dinner. Once again, different foods act different at different times of day. Try bulletproof coffee for bf. Loads of people fast because bf sets them up for a bad day. I like food too much to fast but if I just had eggs and bacon I would be looking for more food. That would be fine for lunch and dinner but not bf.

The points we are trying to get across is you will see millions of different advice. What you're doing now isn't working so try something new!!! Get your macros right at different times of day. By that I mean fatty bf, salad with SOME protein and more fat, and dinner have most of your protein and veg. Sounds like it can't get much worse than it is now.

Ok.

So i tried breakfast with just an avocado and a few brazil nuts. I wasn't full at all. I had to cook some meat.

But the problem is that, i can eat till I'm full - and then i'm hungry again very quickly. Even on a keto meal.

I've tried the bulletproof style drinks. I've done it using coconut oil and either peppermint tea or just hot water. In fact I've done both today. It's not filling, except for about ten minutes. One of those for breakfast won't fill me at all. I don't know how other people manage.

A lower protein i feel is going to leave me hungry. This is what happened last time. I got to dinner and was left with a meal that didn't seem to have enough food.

It maybe the case that I am eating too much protein, but eating less isn't doing the job. Even if I add some fat. I don't know how much fat because the keto community doesn't have an answer. They just say slather fat on everything all the time. I struggle to do that.

 

[ghost_whistler]

I'm very sensitive to carbs but I've never had anything like that. Yes, eating carbs makes me hungry but not actually while I'm eating them. You should discuss that with your GP.

I really do think you need physical and psychological help that this diabetes forum can't give you. Am I right in thinking your GP hasn't given you a diabetes diagnosis? And that you don't have the BG swings characteristic of RH?

I have been tested for diabetes and told that i don't have it.

My GP thinks i just have a reactive metabolism and until my endo appointment in two months there doesn't seem much she can do. I did get hypo moments before when i ate carbs.

I don't know what's going on, but I think my metabolism is partly to blame. I really think there's something wrong. Hopefully the blood tests i did last week can reveal something. Tomorrow i will have to try and get an appointment, because this really needs sorting out.

 

[AndBreathe]

Ok.

So i tried breakfast with just an avocado and a few brazil nuts. I wasn't full at all. I had to cook some meat.

But the problem is that, i can eat till I'm full - and then i'm hungry again very quickly. Even on a keto meal.

I've tried the bulletproof style drinks. I've done it using coconut oil and either peppermint tea or just hot water. In fact I've done both today. It's not filling, except for about ten minutes. One of those for breakfast won't fill me at all. I don't know how other people manage.

A lower protein i feel is going to leave me hungry. This is what happened last time. I got to dinner and was left with a meal that didn't seem to have enough food.

It maybe the case that I am eating too much protein, but eating less isn't doing the job. Even if I add some fat. I don't know how much fat because the keto community doesn't have an answer. They just say slather fat on everything all the time. I struggle to do that.

Purely in the interest of science, have you considered having something small, as in like a tapas selection to nibble on every half hour or every hour during the day and see if that stops the hunger pangs.

You might realistically never be "absolutely full", but not empty either.