I don't get it..

[ladybird64]

Thanks to all who responded.

I didn't intend for this to be a provocative post and I hoped that I had worded it in such a way that it wouldn't be..I certainly wouldn't want you to stop posting here Sid and if you do that because of a post of mine, I shall have to go into a corner and sulk and stomp my feet. :wink:

Seriously, I have read your contributions on this forum, this place would not be the same without you..stay and post please, there is room enough for all of us.

I guess it was the wording on the leaflet that pushed me over the edge. I personally cannot comtemplate giving up/ lowering by a lot my carb intake and at this stage I am still finding out what works for me and what doesn't..I have to be honest and say that a lot of my BG results don't make an iota of sense! They are coming down (in the 7's for the past few days so I must be doing something right!) but it's still early days for me.

The point that I was trying to make was that we all know that it's highly unlikely we can carry on with the same diet we had before were were diagnosed and we do have to make some adjustment.
We all know that carbs affect us, that is the one thing we all have in common and whether we choose to make major changes or just small changes in our carb intake, it is an individual choice.

But..if we are being advised to do something that will generally have adverse affects then I think it''s misleading. Wording such as "eat plenty of" and "fill up on" are still common place and to me suggest that carbohydrate should be the major part of a meal..that's what I was complaining about and as the organisation that is there to help us stay healthy, I think it's very wrong.

Again thanks for contributing everyone, much appreciated.

 

[catherinecherub]

Hi ladybird,

I do not wish to enter any discord but would like to say something with regard to medication for Type2's.

Not all Type2's can manage their diabetes without medication. A lot depends on how long you may have had diabetes prior to diagnosis. High blood sugars can kill beta cells and if you cannot get the blood sugars down with diet and exercise then there is no shame in taking meds. It should never be seen as failure on your part.

 

[Etty]

The DUK, in their section on carbohydrates, advise that about half of all calories should come from carbohydrate, and no more than 10% of calories from added sugar or table sugar. I wonder if anyone who posts on this board thinks this level of carbohydrate and sugar is good advice?

 

[reversingmydiabetes]

I have just signed up here on this forum mainly because of my interest in this post and the responses. I understand what ladybird64 is saying and I have felt some of the same dismay over the things I have read and heard by the mainstream ADA and the medical profession. I went to one diabetes education class and I never went back. I was told to eat up to 33 grams of carbs per meal and snack, well over 100 grams a day. I was in shock. I didn't eat that many carbs prior to my diagnosis. My A1c was 8.8 and they wanted me to eat more carbs?

I found it interesting that although everyone in that class was newly diagnosed, I was the only one who was not already on medication with my doctors blessing. The diabetes educators seemed to be teaching that you could pretty much eat whatever you ate before but keep away from regular sodas, sugary drinks or sugar coated cereals. "just take your medication" was pretty much the advice.

That was 1 1/2 years ago. I am not cured but I am medication free and A1c varies between 6.0 and 6.3. I guess I made a personal choice to try to reverse this thing with supplements and diet. Many others are following the same course. Other's I know from our facebook "reversing diabetes" group are on meds, insulin or pills but are optimistic and getting better. I hope that everyone can accept each other where they are today! We are on the same journey but at different places.

 

[viviennem]

Etty posted:

The DUK, in their section on carbohydrates, advise that about half of all calories should come from carbohydrate, and no more than 10% of calories from added sugar or table sugar. I wonder if anyone who posts on this board thinks this level of carbohydrate and sugar is good advice?

I'm no mathematician, but - if the recommended daily intake of calories per person is 2000:

Half of all calories - 1000 cals - should come from carbohydrate. 4 cals per gram of carb, therefore = 250g of carb daily.

10% of cals from added or table sugar = 200 cals = 25g added sugar.

There'd be no hope for me - my diabetes would certainly be progressive, and I'd already be well on my way to complications.

Viv 8)

 

[RussG]

Hmm. Can I please point out NO MORE THAN 10% from added sugar. (my caps). It's not an instruction to eat that much people.

Please cite your source saying the DUK advocates eating 50% calories from carbohydrates? I can find numerous quotes like this one on the DUK site:

The NHS approach is to consume carbohydrates with a low glycaemic index, which have a slower effect in raising blood sugar levels than carbohydrates with a higher glycaemic index.

The reason cited for this recommendation is that slower absorbed carbohydrates can help to maintain blood sugar levels throught the day.

The recommendations have received criticism though as even low GI carbohydrates are absorbed too quickly for many people with diabetes (particularly those with type 2 diabetes) to prevent high after meal (post prandial) blood glucose levels.

Furthermore, the high total intake of carbohydrates recommended by the NHS and Department of Health (225 to 300g of carbohydrate a day) has been widely criticised by some researchers and by people with diabetes. Insulin resistance in people with type 2 diabetes means that the body struggles to produce enough insulin to metabolise high levels of carbohydrates, and yet Department of Health guidelines are yet to take this into consideration.

This begs the question, in light of research on low carbohydrate diets and their logical affects on a diabetic’s health, why the guidelines are set as they are

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diet/low-carb-diets-and-nhs-advice.html

and this:

Which diet is right for me?
There are a wealth of diets that have proved to be either popular with or of interest for people with diabetes.

We’ve compiled some of the more prominent of these diets, looking at both the benefits and disadvantages of each diet.

Dukan Diet
Low Carb Diet
Glycaemic Index Diet (GI Diet)
NHS Diabetes Diet Advice
Vegan Diet
Vegetarian Diet

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diet-basics.html

and this:

What diet alternatives are there for diabetics?
Diabetic diets should be based on starchy carbohydrates, thereby helping to maintain blood glucose level control. It is advisable to seek a medium whereby you eat exactly how much your body needs, because any extra calories will cause excess weight gain.

Cutting down on carbohydrates can be a good idea, but only in some instances and never completely. Your carb intake should be tailored to your individual needs, and if necessary you should discuss this with a dietician.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/Diabetes-and-Carbohydrate-diets.html

and this

Low Carb Lunch Ideas

Minimise impact on your blood sugar with low carb lunch ideas
Low carb lunch ideas that are fast, healthy and easy to prepare at the office or home. Make your lunch minimally disturbing of your blood glucose control.

Whilst not everyone with diabetes chooses to follow a low carb diet, and a variety of diet options do exist, there is no doubt that restricting carbs helps a lot of people with diabetes to control their blood sugar.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/food/low-carb-lunch.html


Gosh, that almost looks to me like they are showing us lots of different ways to do it and saying we need to get the right balance for us as individuals.

If I followed this advice, I'd have a diet that really worked for me and gave me a 5.2% HbA1c (down from 13.7 in four months) and made sure I avoided complications in the long term.

 

[Grazer]

Good post Russ. Maybe the wrong people are being blamed. The bits you quote sound good to me, and are in line with my thoughts. DEFINITELY some mixed messages out there though, which is a shame, because most of us seem to be arguing with each other on this but saying the same thing!
Malc

 

[NewdestinyX]

I agree with you that others will be different and may be able to eat carbs or whatever more freely; the meter being the proof of what works for you.

One caveat here to your statement that always needs to be part of these discussions. The truth is 'anyone' can eat 'more' carbs (not stating an amount for obvious reasons) if they're willing to make sure they have at least 'some exercise program' and are willing to use the only 'proven' 'pancreas resting/healing' therapy (notice I didn't say 'med') on the market - insulin. Sadly - people's fear of needles and believing of myths like 'you always gain weight on insulin' stop people from being able to manage their diabetes perfectly with simply 'moderating' the carbs. Anyone can do it with 'any' level of carb sensitivity. I've said many times in defense of my "ultra low carb, no-insulin-for-me 'brothers and sisters'" that 'if' you choose a way of life that has no injecting or swallowing of pharmaceuticals - I 'can' respect that - as most oral meds have side effects and I hate that too. (That's why I'm not on metformin anymore. A year of he*ll on that poison confirmed me never being on it again.) But what happens next to individuals who choose the ultra low carb (no med/needles) regimen is what gets weird in some (not all) cases.

After reading these forums for over 2 years now - I notice that people who ultra lo carb/no meds or insulin an then find a level of success on it - they often turn into 'zealots' and 'conspiracy theorists' telling us that the food industry is out to kill us. Sid's spot on on the point that 'successful low carbing' often gives a person 'tunnel vision' that they can then get preachy about.

Then they start to believe things like: some of us CAN'T eat more carbs. That's just not true. You 'choose' to not eat more because of 'other non-negotiables' for you (no needles, no oral meds). I think we always need to have intellectually honest discussions about why we make the choices we do about our control regimens. The worst misinformation and downright 'myth-spreading' I see on diabetic forums is what's said about insulin therapy. It's people's 'misuse/overuse' of it that creates the only two potential complications; hypos/stopping weight loss/weight gain. As soon as you get the dose right and keep moderating the carbs you can do anything you want - maintain, lose weight, etc.. Insulin sorta 'makes you honest' about portion control. It resets the body to processing glucose like a normal person processes. So if you eat 'too much' - you'll gain weight. That's what normal people deal with. Too much of a good thing in the way of carbs (of any kind) and you store weight around the middle. The things that traps most T2's is that the onset of T2 is very slow over a long time and as the signalling system is breaking down between pancreas and liver we're able to eat more and more carbs and it DOESN'T get stored as belly fat nearly as fast. When we take charge of our lives post diagnosis and are put on insulin -- things in the energy producing/fat storing nature of insulin start to return to normal and if we overeat -- boom -- the pounds start going on - especially if you set the basal insulin (slow acting - Lantus, Levemir, etc) too high.

So - main point -- 'anyone' can up their carbs if you choose to, IF you're willing to help your endocrine system return to normal function - which can only really be achieved by adding injected insulin and something that prevents liver dumping and insulin resistance like Metformin.

Met + Insulin + moderating carb intake + 'some' exercise = Normal endocrine system
....and a good quality of life with more food choices than simply dropping the carbs to ultra low which is 'defacto' deprivation which can have stress increasing qualities for some people. Not all. Additionally ultra lo carbing isn't anywhere near as effective at resting the pancreas and regrowing beta mass as insulin therapy is according to the studies I've read.

Just my $0.02

 

[borofergie]

After reading these forums for over 2 years now - I notice that people who ultra lo carb/no meds or insulin an then find a level of success on it - they often turn into 'zealots' and 'conspiracy theorists' telling us that the food industry is out to kill us. Sid's spot on on the point that 'successful low carbing' often gives a person 'tunnel vision' that they can then get preachy about.

This is a gross generalisation, and one that, in my (admittedly short) experience, I don't think is true.
I see almost everyone "flip-flopping" around the low-carb issue, and being careful to add "everyone is different" disclaimers to any post that might ignite another "carb war".

 

[RussG]

Hi borofergie,

Actually I think this is true in part. There are definitely people who are to use one of NewD's phrases myopically focused on a very low carb lifestyle as *the only* way to manage your diabetes and frankly I see some of them using language constructions and arguments that I think are very similar to 9/11 truthers etc. However these are a small minority. Some people like this have historically been very disruptive here and I think a few people who are long term posters are very sensitive to these sorts of discussions, hence everyone trying to not ignite a war. I think almost everyone *here* is much more sensitive on both sides of the fence, but that's not true everywhere and not everyone only posts here.

In short, I kind of agree with both you and NewD. Isn't the world wonderful?

 

[WhitbyJet]

Oh

 

[bowell]

Thing is Grant if you are a driver in the UK and a Insulin user the system kinda works against you

Even a normal car license is then restricted to 3 years
Some jobs are very resistive if you are insulin user or have a Total blanket ban



So you can see why a T2 if had the choice may NOT want to move onto insulin
because of driving or there job

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/MedicalRulesForDrivers/MedicalA-Z/DG_185427

This list does not cover every position, and an employer may use their own discretion, in some cases unfairly. Some of these jobs are exempt from the Disability Discrimination Act of 1995, meaning that employers can refuse an applicant who has diabetes.

Driving HGVs, buses and taxis
Armed forces
Fire service
Ambulance service
Prison service
Airline pilots and Airline Cabin crew
Air traffic control
Offshore work

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-and-employment.html

 

[Unbeliever]

If its any consolation Whitbyjet I had been following a low GI diet for some years before I was diagnosed. The GP diabetes specialist did actually recommend the GI diet to me but was a bit flummoxed when I told him I already did this and offered me no further advice but mutterered something about "we musyt make sure hat you get enough to eat" I was avery skinny T2. In retrospect I think this must have been a reference to carbs, He also muttered somehig about
eating things which were difficuklt to digest" A few good hints there which he never pursued.
Still well mweant I think, and on the right track.
Then unfortunately I was handed over to the nurse . She was very young. Didn't know much and her standard approach to those whose medecation didn't work was to ask if they had been eating whole packets of biscuits!

She handed me a lot of leaflets with the oddest advice I have ever seen. I can see now that it was intended for those who had a very bad diet originally and was probably meant to wean them off it gradually but to me was just advocating the worst diet I could imagine,

Needless o say I didn't follow he advice but just lost faith in the whole process..

Low catbs have certainly worked for me but probably also combined with low GI as I just eat that way automaically after so many years . I also eat small portions and exercise more so many different aspects to it all.

I suppose the moral or point is that you just can't win and neither can the HCP's while they are gagged and expeced to toe the party line. They ought to be allowed o treat people as individuals and suggest various approaches,

 

[reversingmydiabetes]

A few things I would like to respond to here. First, in regard to insulin therapy. Insulin therapy can be useful for some type 2's, however; if someone is severly insulin resistant, they already have more than enough insulin traveling around their blood stream and knocking at the cell doors. Extra insulin may work by finally forcing the cells to accept the glucose but high levels of insulin will eventually cause heart attack or stroke. The body has been designed to use insulin only when necessary and too much is toxic to the body. Short term, it may be necessary but eveyone knows that you will need more and more unless you stop eating carbs that turn to glucose.

My second point is about low GI. Some of the members of our "reversing diabetes" facebook group have experimented with low GI/low GL. What we have discovered is that although blood glucose doesn't rise in the two to 2 1/2 hour BG testing window, it will cause a surprise at about 3 1/2 -4 hours after eating when you have not tested because all seems good. Carbs always cause an increase in blood sugar, fast action or slow, the body eventually has to metabolize them. If you are on BG lowering meds or insulin you may need to keep blood sugar steady to avoid the lows. Once you have stabilized your blood glucose levels and your insulin needs are lower you don't need to worry about the lows because hopefully, if beta cells remain you would produce enough insulin to manage a small carb load (say 5-10 gr per meal)from eating mainly low carb vegetables and berries. There are many many successes with going low carb. Many that have been on 3 or 4 medications have gone off of all or several of them within a few months of changing their diets and adding exercise which seems to also be key.

 

[WhitbyJet]

reversingmydiabetes

 

[reversingmydiabetes]

whitbyjet, I am sorry that you may have misinterpreted my post. In an earlier post in this same thread I stated the following

"I made a personal choice to try to reverse this thing with supplements and diet. Many others are following the same course. Other's I know from our facebook "reversing diabetes" group are on meds, insulin or pills but are optimistic and getting better. I hope that everyone can accept each other where they are today! We are on the same journey but at different places."

I accept that everyone is in a different place. I accept that others need medication and would never suggest that someone simply stop taking it. My post was simply in regard to the fact that carbs will ALWAYS increase blood sugar no matter whether low GI or high GI. They just affect blood sugar at different levels and time frames.

As for insulin, yes, many need it. My mother is on it but she eats whatever she wants and admits it. When she takes supplements and eats less carbs her doctor has to lower her insulin but over the years she has had to have it increased as her cells resist more and more. It is proven that high insulin levels in the blood are as dangerous or more so than high blood sugar. I would like to see everyone read Dr. Richard Bernstein's Diabetes Solution in order to understand how important it is to balance insulin, blood sugar and carbohydrate levels.

 

[pianoman]

Each to their own is what I say BUT if would have been jolly nice if someone had told me in the beginning that there are other options apart from the standard carbs with every meal stuff when dealing with our diabetes. Why was I not told earlier that even a reduction of carbs could make some difference?

My thoughts exactly WhitbyJet... it took me many years of struggling with BGs and excess fat mass before luckily happening upon a Diabetes forum and finally becoming aware that reducing carbohydrates was even an option, so my first question was also "why was I not told about this before?".

The next question was even more puzzling though: "why is there so much resistance to this approach even amongst those on Diabetes forums and why does it cause so much grief?" it clearly works for many of us, and after years of fighting against my own body and being told I lacked "will-power" I make no apologies for being an enthusiastic promoter of this approach.

Sure, it may seem so obvious once it has been explained to you but it really isn't so obvious without the benefit of hindsight. Expert advice like...

Diabetic diets should be based on starchy carbohydrates, thereby helping to maintain blood glucose level control.

...may be interpreted by someone "in the know" as meaning "the quality of the carbohydrate foods you choose can effect your BGs" but for a middle-aged novice to diabetic nutrition (like I was) it could just as easily be taken to mean "for good BG control, eat starchy food". Am I just stupid or should the experts be a little less ambiguous?

Maybe I'll sound like an old fart complaining about today's youth but I wonder how many of those newly diagnosed who find the far more common forums these days and learn about all the options sooner -- I wonder if they realise how much better off they are? There's gratitude for you! LOL

 

[Daibell]

I'm convinced that the term 'starchy' is the cause of some misinterpretations. It's meant to imply high fibre, slowly digested carbs which are the best kind i.e. low GI carbs. Problem is that the uninitiated interpret it as any carbs based on starchy material and bread, pasta etc of all kinds becomes OK. They start from low GI material and become high GI once refined i.e bad in large quantities.

 

[ladybird64]

Again, thanks to all who contribute to this thread, it makes for interesting reading.

What I would ask however is that it is not turned into the oft seem low carb vs whatever that occurs so frequently on this forum..this was not my purpose when opened the thread.

It seems that the point I was making about the info, or rather the wording still in use on many offical advisory leaflets etc has been agreed upon by the majority of us. It is good to see that Diabetes.UK are taking these issues seriously and accepting that it really isn't a case of one size fits all.

I have the greatest respect for anyone who manages their diabetes by whatever means. I have only come across kind and helpful people here, low carbers and reduced carbers. Nobody has judged me, suggestions have been made gently regarding dietary changes and meds and at no point do I feel that I am being pushed to do anything..that only one way is the "right way".
Just as well as I would come out fighting

So..we all agree that more information given out at present should be changed? I would certainly like to see an end to the "fill up on carbs" business and that a reduction might be helpful. Better choice given to the individual who wants to be more proactive and better communication between professionals and patients. Sigh. maybe it could happen..

Sorry just need to add a bit to reversingmydiabetes' post.

I read some of your blog and am delighted that what you have chosen is working for you. However, one of the doctors that you advocate as sharing the same opinions as you writes this.

While type 1 diabetes is an autoimmune disease that shuts down your body's insulin production, type 2 diabetes is directly caused by an unhealthy lifestyle. Type 1 diabetics do need to inject insulin several times a day to stay alive, but type 2 diabetics do NOT need drugs. In fact, taking insulin if you're a type 2 diabetic is one of the WORST things you can do. Any physician recommending insulin regularly for type 2 diabetes suffers from profound ignorance of insulin physiology.

You agree with this? I thought the info given out in the UK regarding diet was bad, for a doctor to write this as a blanket statement regarding medication is unbelieveable. My 21 yr old daughter (type 2) is on insulin and oral medication. She has other health issues which are lifelong, a rare syndrome which will never leave her. From what you write, I can look forward to her dying early from a heart attack or stroke because of the insulin she has to have.

Quite disturbing reading actually.

 

[NewdestinyX]

Thing is Grant if you are a driver in the UK and a Insulin user the system kinda works against you

Even a normal car license is then restricted to 3 years
Some jobs are very resistive if you are insulin user or have a Total blanket ban

So you can see why a T2 if had the choice may NOT want to move onto insulin
because of driving or there job.

I did not know that about over there, Bowell. Thanks for the education. Though airline pilots over here in the US have restrictions as diabetics on insulin - drivers do not. That would never be accepted over here. Not sure how they can really 'enforce it' over there either. Do the doctors report to the bureaus of driver licensing?

It is proven that high insulin levels in the blood are as dangerous or more so than high blood sugar.

Not so Reverse, (hey - welcome to the forum!) - but what you stated there is a myth too often promulgated on these forums. Hyperinsulinemia has never been conclusively proven to be a factor in heart disease and stroke. Total myth. Another myth often used to keep people from the insulin that would help them so much.

I would like to see everyone read Dr. Richard Bernstein's Diabetes Solution in order to understand how important it is to balance insulin, blood sugar and carbohydrate levels.

[/quote]
Bernstein is alone in many of his conclusions. Considered a 'quack' by many. If even any ONE other endocrinologist would back his claims he may have greater respect. He's become a 'cult hero' to most extreme lo carbers and that's sad. Because not all of Dr.B's patients thrive. I've read a few of their stories. DrB only sees thing in one way. Again his work is not corroborated by others in his field and people should be very wary of his conclusions. I've read his book and it has MANY flaws in approach and is myopic. He's not looking at the patient as a 'whole person' - he only looks at their BG levels and everything else is secondary.