Low-Carb Diets – What Is Missing?

[AliB]

Thanks for the inquest Ka-Mon. And thanks for the clarification Phoenix. Being in the early hours when I posted I failed to clarify that I meant calories not weight.

Unfortunately, most of the Medical Profession - and the Scientific Community has been duped by the same untruths and half-truths as the rest of us as far as saturated fat is concerned. It got into the public psyche through the media and has stuck there ever since.

Fortunately, some enlightened souls - including many in the Medical Profession and the Scientific Community have wised up and realised that this fat that has been eaten for thousands of years isn't actually the demon it's made out to be.

Goodness me, whatever did the Human race get their fat from before the advent of plastic margarine and processed rapeseed oil?

It's a wonder we didn't die out thousands of years ago with all this saturated fat clogging our arteries.

I just love this video by Tom Naughton. Kind of gets to the point....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exi7O1li_wA

 

[viviennem]

Exactly, Sid!

I don't know exactly when the potato reached the Middle East (or the Eastern Mediterranean, if you prefer) but it certainly wasn't before the late 16th century. I don't know when, or where, it was first used in moussaka. It may have been used for about 400 years.

Our major carbohydrate source (grains) has only been available in quantity, outside its harvest season, for ten to twelve thousand years. Our second major source has only been available outside the Americas for about 400.

Olive oil has only been available for the same ten to twelve thousand years - the Mediterranean Triad of grain, grape and olive.

Hominids have been a recognisable sub-species of great ape for about 1.5 million years - maybe a bit more.

I see no reason why some of us shouldn't be better adapted to carbohydrates than others. It appears I'm not, so I limit my intake. On the other hand, I don't seem to have too much trouble metabolising natural, unprocessed fats, so I don't limit my intake of those. Nor do I gorge on them.

If you're eating a wide range of foods, all in moderation, I don't see why there should be anything missing from a low-carb diet. But I'm not a nutritionist, and I'm always willing to listen to the other side of the argument, and learn.

Viv 8)

 

[Ka-Mon]

Thanks for the inquest Ka-Mon.

"Inquest"? Maybe I got qualifications that I didn't know I had. :lol:

Unfortunately, most of the Medical Profession - and the Scientific Community has been duped by the same untruths and half-truths as the rest of us as far as saturated fat is concerned. It got into the public psyche through the media and has stuck there ever since.

Fortunately, some enlightened souls - including many in the Medical Profession and the Scientific Community have wised up and realised that this fat that has been eaten for thousands of years isn't actually the demon it's made out to be.

Hmmmm...sounds like 99.99% of the worlds population are suckers, enough to be "duped" and 0.01% are the "enlightened souls"....must be massive conspiracy to kill us in early ages to save paying pensions. :?

Goodness me, whatever did the Human race get their fat from before the advent of plastic margarine and processed rapeseed oil?

It's a wonder we didn't die out thousands of years ago with all this saturated fat clogging our arteries.

I wonder if they would have lived as long a life as we do today with all the modern technology/knowledge and medication we enjoy today instead of dying at the tender (average) age of around 40, 50 if they were lucky. :?:

 

[viviennem]

Hmmmm...sounds like 99.99% of the worlds population are suckers, enough to be "duped" and 0.01% are the "enlightened souls"....must be massive conspiracy to kill us in early ages to save paying pensions.

I didn't know that 99.9% of how many billion avoided saturated fat? Fascinating!

Viv 8)

 

[sparkles]

Somewhere way back in this thread.

“I eat potatoes, rice, bread and other carby foods every day and they dont raise my bg levels in the amounts that I eat them in so why would I need my awareness raised? My meter does that for me rather well thanks “
Sid bonkers.

Sid, you are obviously an old hand on this site (- and many of the other posters are too)… But have you ever considered the newbies’ perspective? Newbies, like myself are often learners, grappling with the many (new to them) ideas on this forum.

I understood the original point made in this thread as this …

a low carb diet can be linked to certain illnesses ( osteoporosis etc) …then for those diabetics who choose to manage their diabetes via the low-carb route (and who therefore put themselves at risk of these illnesses), there may be a way to avoid these illness-complications by swapping certain vegetables. -discuss,

I never once got the impression that Wrunkelt was saying to you or anyone else that you can’t or shouldn’t eat those starchy foods in moderation if you so choose nor did I understand Wrunkeld to say that following a low fat diet is wrong or a low carb diet right. (fat was not originally mentioned at all. ) It would appear reading his post that Wrunkelt is probably a pro-low-carber (why else post such a post.) One who would probably be happy to swap spuds for greens.

As a sometimes slightly bewildered observer I think you (meaning 'different factions' and not you sid) are equally entitled to your different approaches. As someone new.. Here on the forum and to low carb in general… I like to think I would be allowed that entitlement too …of finding my own way and ultimately it is in persuit of that (finding ‘my way‘) that I am here.

I did not previously know of the links between low-carb, scurvy and osteoparosis so I immediately learned (or should I say part-learned) something on reading Wrunkelt’s post. ..Something which as a potential long term low-carber would be beneficial to me to know. There is a risk of other illnesses. I suppose its inevitable that given such different beliefs and approaches to managing diabetes as exists its inevitably that different factions would form here. But what happened to respect? Why the need for one faction to take what the other faction says so personally that they sabotage a post from the beginning? …Or rip people or their ideas to shreds?

I have no idea what the best way of dealing with diabetes is for myself never mind anyone else. But I am (at last) interested to find out and I am encouraged by my own experiments with low carb. If I felt the low-carb approach worked (and so far I do) I would naturally want to shout about it to anyone who is at the ‘shopping for a solution stage’ that I was at till recently. (cos its horrid for anyone being without control and understanding) This doesn’t mean that any other person who has found a different or even opposite route to successful diabetes management can’t shout about their beliefs or success too. I agree totally with the person here who said ‘knowledge is the key to managing diabetes. ’ I agree with Dd that we all gain by living with diabetes (in a way) that is suitable to us (as individuals)

DD also asked Wrunkelt “Why the concentration on low carbs?” But I would ask “why not?” Especially as Wrunkelt posted in the LOW- CARB forum’.

I didn’t get the impression Wrunkelt was trying to hijack anything. But I did get the impression that the focus shifted several times (as sometimes happens.) from the original topic as people grasped it. (Cugila was the first person to introduce the idea of low fat in this thread and DD introduced the processed v unprocessed idea which AliB later picks up. ) At times I found it difficult to follow for all the mud slinging. Someone said they “know what to eat that’s good for them without being preached at…” Well, I’d say there are some people out there who are diabetic and really quite seriously ill who think its fine to eat lots of things which it is obviously not good for them to eat. I know because I was one of them. (call me ignorant-I’ll agree) They may come to this site as I did looking for pointers and hoping to work things out for themselves and I think it would be beneficial to be mindful of that. When the focus of a thread is threatening in some way to one or other faction they seem to go into defence mode? and all hell breaks lose. ….Why is that?

As a newbie, I am here looking for understanding, support, somewhere to share my successes and failures with people who would hopefully understand and be sympathetic to them. I am also here searching to make sense of my condition and become educated in how to best manage it. I have chosen low carb but it doesn’t stop me appreciating other approaches.

Why shout an idea down before its even had time to grow?

Can anyone tell me anything about the link between low carb and scurvy and osteoporosis? How big a problem is it?

Phoenix thanks for clarifying the diet percentages- I especially found that useful.
Sparkles.

 

[donnellysdogs]

quoted from 'answers.com....'.....Do people still get scurvy?' Yes they do. but there are treatments to heal it now. in the 1400s, scurvy caused many people to die but until the 1740s the iroquois got a treatment for the french to heal scurvy. scurvy comes from a vitamin c deficiency.'

 

[ailz]

Thank you Sparkles for saying what I wanted to say but much, much better than I ever could.

Ailz

 

[Hobnoblin]

Whats missing

Taste, varity and texture oh and interest..

None of these things are missing in a low carb diet. Most starchy carbs need an awful amount of seasoning to taste good. Ever tried to eat an unsalted boiled potato? You just need to take time to invest a little in yourself. Learning to cook well is a pleasure not a chore.I eat whole foods almost exclusively, bar the odd occasion, it just tastes better than processed packaged carb rubbish.

As a T2 you have a choice, reduce your carbs or increase medication. Whatever you do is up to you, and in no way am I passing judgement. If I HAD to use insulin I might think differently about starchy carbs, I probably would be tempted to eat more and cover it with the insulin, but then I wouldn't be reaping the benefits of a low carb diet. I've been successfully low carbing for over 5 years now. My highest Hba1C during this time has been 5.8, mostly it's in the low 5s. I've lost over 9 stone in weight and feel fantastic. Oh and I'm still totally medication free.

I do understand that it's not for everyone but what I can't understand is people who seem obsessed by rubbishing it at every opportunity. If it's not for you fine but don't deny other the chance to try it and reap the benefits I have.

 

[viviennem]

My understanding of scurvy and osteoporosis and similar conditions is very limited, and I am open to correction and further information on this from anyone who knows more . . .

Having said that - scurvy is caused by a lack of Vitamin C in the diet, and osteoporosis is a condition when calcium leaches out of the bones. Calcium needs magnesium and Vitamin D to be processed properly by the body.

So - if you are eating any kind of a restricted diet, there is the possibility that you are not getting the right amount of micronutrients into your body. Vegetarians, for instance, have to eat carefully to get the right amount of iron - much of the iron in the "average" Western diet comes from red meat, but it's also available from (eg) green leafy vegetables such as spinach, and other sources. You just have to eat plenty of them.

If you are restricting your fruit intake on a low-carb diet, there is the possibility that you might not be getting enough Vitamin C which could in theory lead to scurvy. But there are lots of other sources of Vitamin C among vegetables, and even offal, so as long as you are eating a varied diet you should be getting enough. Similarly with calcium for your bones - but you have also to make sure you're getting magnesium and Vit D to help you metabolise it - so as well as cheese, you need to get Vit D from oily fish, eggs and sunshine, and magnesium from veg and I think nut sources.

If you eat properly on a low-carb diet, with a good variety of foods, you are not any more likely than anyone else in the population to get deficiency diseases. In fact, when you think of how many people never eat fruit and veg, but also never get scurvy, it's unlikely all round.

Osteoporosis is a bit more complicated because of the tie-in with female hormones, but as long as you eat properly and get some sunshine, you're no more likely to get it than anyone else. Weight-bearing exercise is also good against osteoporosis - calcium leaches faster out of unused bones than it does out of used ones - astronauts lose calcium because of the effect of null gravity. I have heard, though it may be a myth, that fat people are less likely to get osteoporosis because of all the weight they carry around on their frame! :lol: Yay, there's a good side! :shock: :lol:

Incidentally - men can get osteoporosis too :wink:

Viv 8)

 

[ailz]

I eat fruit rather than veggies on my low carb. In fact going low carb has given me the incentive I needed to refuse veggies :lol: - never have liked them much.

I've stopped eating bread, potatoes, rice - I do occasionally have barley - but that's the only grain. I occasionally eat green beans - but I've been able to give up cabbage and carrots (cooked), parsnips and all the other veg I don't like - it's easy to be angelic 8) . From reading (either Gary Taubes, Atkins, Livin La Vida Low carb or someone like that) I understand that eating carbs can cause a lack of Vitamin C - which is why the Inuit etc. don't suffer from Scurvy. It was because sailors weren't eating much in the way of fresh meat - but were eating lots of carbs - ships biscuits etc. that they got scurvy in the first place.

Cheers
Ailz

 

[catherinecherub]

Interesting article about Agriculture and the Origins of Civilization.

http://history-world.org/neolithic.htm

As to the possible Alzheimer's connection and diet. It was 1906 when an autopsy was perfomed and the word was used for what was found.http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~wuhsi/alz.html It was probably in existence before then but families looked after their own and Gran or Grandad or even Great Aunt Maud was probably thought of as a bit odd and then as the disease progressed they were classed as mad .

There have been several theories over the following years as to what the cause is, this is still ongoing. Toxins from aluminum pots and pans, dental fillings, aspartame and sweeteners are some of the possible causes they are still being researched.

When you think of the generation that are suffering now I do not believe that their diet was the cause. Lest we forget, they were alive during WW2. This age group used natural foods, learned cooking skills from previous generations and shopped locally for good ingredients. Gardens were full of vegetables and fruit, they kept chickens, baked their own bread and none of the foods we see today were around as supermarkets did not exist. Porridge was the norm for breakfast and bacon and eggs on a Sunday if they could afford it.
Rabbits, chickens, and they ate tongue, boiled ham , chitlings,(intestine of pigs), hearts, tripe etc. MOst of their age group kept to these traditions and unless they were in poor health and relied on meals on wheels or something similar they did not change their habits. Their diet was not steeped in transfats and they ate all things in moderation.
The only thing that some of the poorer of them might have suffered from was malnutrition.
As this disease does not have a class barrier, it cannot have been the malnutrition.

 

[phoenix]

I have heard, though it may be a myth, that fat people are less likely to get osteoporosis because of all the weight they carry around on their frame! Yay, there's a good side!

,

you are right about that weight bearing exercise increases bone strength .I have a mother with dreadful osteoporosis so I had my bone density checked a couple of years ago, it was actually very good. So maybe the running helped there.
But to put it ' tactfully' older men who have been overweight in the past may be at less risk tan women and younger people who adopt such a diet.

The longest term studies of vlcd ie ketogenic have been done on the keto diet for childhood epilepsy and certainly a fairly recent study showed some bone demineralisation . (sorry haven't time to look it up
Type 1 women are particularly prone to osteoporosis and as the greatest bone density is achieved in the early 30s it's particularly important they have developed a good bone structure by then, because afterwards it gradually gets less dense.
If you google low carb or ketogenic you will find a couple of cases of scurvy linked to lowcarb/keto diets ad as someone said it can also occur in some people who eat 'junk food diets' with no fruit and veg at all.
If you're eating ad libitum fruit and veg then there wouldn't be any potential problem but looking at the suggested menus in the Atkin's diabetes diet book, I don't see that. I see severely restricted fruit and veg.. to keep the carb count down. I think I'll put a few of the suggested days menus through one of the diet counting websites and see what figures they produce
ed for spelling

 

[Ka-Mon]

Hmmmm...sounds like 99.99% of the worlds population are suckers, enough to be "duped" and 0.01% are the "enlightened souls"....must be massive conspiracy to kill us in early ages to save paying pensions.

I didn't know that 99.9% of how many billion avoided saturated fat? Fascinating!

Viv 8)

Ask AliB, she can explain it far better than I ever can.

 

[ally5555]

Wow - what happened!

Can I add a few things. in the UK we have Dietary Reference Values that superceded the RDA in 1991 known as Report 41 (HMSO) They have not changed very much since then although the SACN committees are reviewing some - look at the SACN website.
You can also find details on the website of the British Nutrition Foundation.

If you break down the DRV you will find there are different values for males/females and age ranges but adults need 40mg Vit C and 700mg Calcium.

We also have UK food tables - known as Mcance and Widdowson.

In the Uk scurvy is rare but sub clinical states occur that can result in aneamia and poor wound healing. In practice many of the population are eating less than the DRV and certainly dietary analysis of the many food diaries I have seem to reflect this!

Osteoporosis is much more common - it will effect 1 in 6 females and 1 in 12 males. Many people are not taking enough calcium and may be compounded by other factors - lack of Vit D , wt bearing exercise etc - low carb diets may be low in calcium .

The fact is that you have to consider the whole diet not just carbs or fat to stay healthy. We did an interesting little project on here a couple of years ago - I analysed about 15 low carbers and mod carbers diets and the results were quite interesting - many were low in fat, vit C , calcium. It must be on the forum - the important thing is to be aware of the problems and deal with them. In fact one of the suprising things was the low fat intake as well. The amount of fat based on an average male and female is 90-95g and 70-75g/day.

Looking at individual foods in isolation as this post started out is of no particular value !

Ally - shall I copyright this as I am sure it will appear somewhere else in about 5 minutes!

Maybe we should do it again!

 

[donnellysdogs]

Yes please Ally5555!!!! Would be good to see how things may have changed etc since last done etc...

 

[sparkles]

Thank you Ailz

Hobnoblin -Have to say well done to you losing 9 stone and maintaining great Bgs! Regardless of how you did it that’s quite an achievement!
… yes.. An unsalted boiled potatoe without cream or butter is actually pretty awful …yet so addictive when tarted up! I’ve never considered myself a good cook. We joke here that I have one setting when cooking, high or higher. I often burn things. Always used cheap oil, never used lard and had never heard the term trans fats till a few weeks ago. (Dread to think!) But after finally getting over the mental obstacles and looking into things I’m enjoying it. You’re right, it is ‘investing in self’ but I’ve always been lazy, not important enough and hung up about lack of money to go there. Now I’m doing it I’m finding even the limited finance accommodates change on a small scale. And I’m loving the experimenting with foods and flavours. This morning I made the fridge flax cracker mix someone posted here and from the mix made 2 perfectly formed microwave crackers in a microwave egg poacher in 2 mins.. Amazed when it worked-so simple and quick.. I also made a 89% choc-chip -my own variation based on(patch’s? -not sure) almond cookies. They turned out brilliant -15 cookies and the only sweetness coming from a tablespoon of raisins (ground) and a small dash of my homemade elderflower cordial. But wonderfully biscuity. I also set away a new oatcake mix to ferment. All this in about an hour… but it means I now have the basics to see me through a week at very low cost. By doing, I’m learning. It’s trial and error but I’m finding it great fun. But I’ve adopted the attitude now and found the motivation …don’t ask me how.

Regarding scurvy I am not terribly strictly following Atkins as I’m using these flax produce I’m creating and have a very little fruit most days. I always put loads of lemon and or lime (vit C.) on my salads so I think I will live. I expect I’m getting enough calcium from all the eggs, fish and (soya milk? ) I just try to stick to what I know to be low carb but eat lots of variety of all macronutrients and I do use one or other veg in place of the lost carbs as Wrunkelt suggests. I’m mainly trying to lose weight and control BG. I actually envy those who can achieve that on a low fat diet. I just never could and its demoralising over time. The last thing I ever would have wanted to do is give up potatoes and bread which I love, never mind the rice and pasta. But I tried it and its working and for the first time in my life I’m losing weight and feeling in control. So I’m happy to leave the spuds etc for now in exchange for that NEW feeling of control and success. It means a lot to me and it feels worth it. May be one day I’ll have the confidence and control to reintroduce and ration spuds etc.. Just not yet as I don’t have that control and I need to lose weight especially to aid my diabetic health,
Sparkles

 

[Hobnoblin]

We did an interesting little project on here a couple of years ago - I analysed about 15 low carbers and mod carbers diets and the results were quite interesting - many were low in fat, vit C , calcium. It must be on the forum - the important thing is to be aware of the problems and deal with them.

Was that a proper analysis Ally, ie weekly or monthly food diary analysis, with the full cooperation of the subjects?

 

[ally5555]

hi

It was not done on more than 2-3 days - yes not ideal but gave me an overview. In a scientific study it would be done over at least a week and probably weighed, But it gave us an idea, It was analysed using Dietplan - dietary analysis package using British Food Tables - Composition of Food.

I think it gave us a trend!

 

[Hobnoblin]

So they submitted daily food diaries to you? Didn't you charge? LOL

 

[ally5555]

No - I did not it I was just interested!