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Low-Carb Diets – What Is Missing?

Discussion in 'Low-carb Diet Forum' started by Wrunkelt, Jun 18, 2011.

  1. AliB

    AliB Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    You see, that's the problem. People always want to try and 'replace' carb foods with other veg, and it just doesn't work. Of course cauliflower doesn't taste like rice - it isn't rice! But mashed, with a little Marigold bouillon powder (from Tesco, etc), a knob of butter and a dash of cream it's delicious. Even my grandkids scoff it gratefully.

    I have made low-carb 'lasagne' made with minced beef, tomatoes and onions layered with thinly sliced carrot, mashed cauliflower and a good slather of cheese sauce and that was so good it was published in a magazine! The kids always scoffed that one down too.

    Although it is made in a similar way, I never considered it to be lasagne - how can it be without the pasta? But it is a very good substitute.

    It is about being adventurous. My daughter recently went to dinner with some friends. The husband is Egyptian. She came back enthusing over the thinly sliced aubergine fried in olive oil and sprinkled with lemon juice and sea salt. It was delicious - I have made it myself. Moussaka is another delicious meal made with minced lamb or beef and aubergine that has been served in Greece for generations.

    If you are expecting low-carb food to taste like fish and chips or spaghetti bolognese you're going to be disappointed. But if you are open-minded enough to try anything you might just be surprised.
     
  2. PastaShape

    PastaShape · Member

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    AliB

    Thats what i eat and it works. My doctor says i am well controlled and have very lowhbaic for a diabetic.
     
  3. ClaireG 06

    ClaireG 06 · Well-Known Member

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    Surely it's all about finding out what works for you. The best way to do this is to use your meter to find out raises your BG. Unfortunatly, there is no one diet fits all. After all we are all individuals.
     
  4. sugarless sue

    sugarless sue · Master

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    It's always great when we hear of members getting control of their Diabetes Pasta Shape,good for you !

    That's what makes this Forum so good, learning all the different ways they can control their Diabetes then choosing which one works best for them. After all we are all individuals with unique bodies so we all have to learn as much as possible to self empower ourselves. In diabetes Knowledge definitely is the key to control.
     
  5. AliB

    AliB Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Ken, I also managed to control my diabetes within a few weeks by going low-carb, but by the time I started the healing diet (14 months ago to be exact) I was very sick and had ended up in Hospital on more than one occasion.

    On several occasions my BP went through the roof and I was so bloated I thought I was dying. It's not much fun when your guts are trying to climb out through your throat!

    I became sick at the age of 14 with what would probably now be termed as chronic fatigue and that has dogged me all my life (I am now over fifty). Linked with weight problems and what I now realise was metabolic syndrome my health gradually deteriorated, culminating (after being given Byetta in 2007 wich trashed my already sensitive digestion big-time) in an almost total collapse of my digestive system with everything I ate running straight through me and horrendous stomach pain.

    When the Medical Profession failed to 'find anything wrong' with me I gave up on them and set about figuring it out myself. I chanced on a gluten connection, dumped the gluten and the diarrhea and pain stopped - within hours. I then also went low-carb as I realised the carbs weren't doing me any favours.

    I was still very sick - the gluten had done a lot of damage to my digestive system - damage that has been taking a long time to heal. It, as is the case with all Coeliac damage had caused a lot of malabsorption issues and my body is still remedying that and playing catch up. Many people with Coeliac Disease do not ever effect a perfect recovery, even off gluten, so I am very grateful that my body is gradually healing. When I am talking about healing, I am not referring to Diabetic control. Anyone can acheive that through diet or medication - that is just control. I am talking about HEALING.

    I am talking about no more fungus or dandruff, or athlete's foot or thrush. I am talking about no more restless legs, or burning feet, or palpitations, or night sweats, or hot flushes, or guts trying to climb out through my throat, or high blood pressure (threw the tablets away). I am talking about no more 'cholesterol' lumps around my eyes, no more 'weak' back - so weak I couldn't sit unaided, improved digestion, more energy and stamina, better sleep, softer and more hydrated skin and the disappearance of 'age spots' from the backs of my hands. I am talking about better eyesight, stronger nails, no more pain in my back or my liver or my coccyx, more flexible joints, no more neuropathy or screamingly painful 'gouty' toes, 'locked' fingers or 'frozen' shoulder. Progressively less 'crunching' when I move my neck, no more IBS or raging 'colic' so bad I have passed out, or extremely swollen and painful lymph glands.

    When my hair starts to regrow I'll let you know. And if the Diabetes goes away i'll let you know that too. I am 14 months into the healing diet - as REAL healing takes approximately one month for every year you have been sick, I only have another 3 years to go..... I may not be getting younger, but at least I am getting well.

    Please don't be facetious about my health issues. you do not know me or what I have been through. Just be very grateful that you haven't been there yourself.
     
  6. jopar

    jopar · Well-Known Member

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    Alzihiemers could be a simple case of mathematics!

    More people are living longer than they used to! If you look at percentages you find that it remains pretty constants it's around about 5% of the age group! Do the maths

    Some of your idea's/arguments are actually condictive in theory big problem there..
     
  7. cugila

    cugila · Master

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    AliB
    I don't know why you think I am being facetious ? I am just genuinely concerned that things seem to be taking such a long time to improve for you. I am aware of many of the things you have mentioned in your post. I read all your posts with interest. I might not agree with much of what you write but they are always well crafted.

    We have had a few chats over the years and I always enjoy our exchanges. Long may that continue
    . :)
     
  8. Ka-Mon

    Ka-Mon · Well-Known Member

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    Personal taste plays a very important part in eating the sort of foods you mention above, no one can force themselves to eat something they don't like.

    BTW, Moussaka has been served all over the Middle east and the far east as well for hundreds of years, not just in Greece. It can be cooked with aubergines or potatos, some even mix both together but again it's personal taste.

    Well said here because a lot of us are open minded and we have tried many things out until we found out what our bodies can tolerate without our BGs going high.
     
  9. Ka-Mon

    Ka-Mon · Well-Known Member

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    I'd be interested to know what you consider (in weight) "low-fat" to be? Is it lower than the RDA or the same as RDA?

    What (in weight again) is considered to be "high-fat"? As much as you want or is there an upper limit to what one should eat daily?
     
  10. AliB

    AliB Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    The thing is Ken, that we are way too programmed into the idea that you go to the Doctor and get you 'pill to end all ills' and everything will be hunky dory immediately.

    Maybe the pills take the pain away, or stop the diarrhea, or bring your blood pressure down, but they very very rarely, if ever, actually address the cause of the problem. Diabetic medication may 'control' the Diabetes, but they don't reverse it or make it go away. They don't explain why your blood pressure is raised in the first place, or what is causing your pain or your diarrhea - they just mask the symptoms.

    Just as degeneration occurs over a period of time, so real healing has to take time. The body is a fantastic healing machine - if we give it the right tools, but even the body cannot perform miracles.

    If you plant a seed, you don't expect to wake up the next morning with a 10ft tree growing in the pot! That doesn't happen in nature and it doesn't happen with us. If you cut yourself, it doesn't heal immediately. It may take a week, or several depending on the severity.

    People who have been severely damaged in accidents have found their nerves regrowing over a period of years. Some with neurological damage have been able to regain cognition over time. Stroke victims often regain their faculties over time. I have not expected my recovery to be any faster than it is - if it was that quick, wouldn't everyone be doing it???! Most people are too impatient. But when you have no choice, what do you have to lose?

    There are many people following this diet. And they are all healing. It can be frightening at first - healing reactions are often very similar to damage reactions and people think they are getting worse - I know I did. Teeth-chattering chills and fevers, colds, catarrgh, headaches, rashes, diarrhea, etc., etc., etc. All detox symptoms that the body now - with the higher nutrition and removal of the damaging foods - can finally get on with. But like eveything else, it passes.

    I had a three-month stint at the beginning or the year of all sorts of stuff clearing out of my hepatic and lymphatic system. Never experienced anything like that before. Like little electric shocks coursing through my lymph system - in my back, my left side and my neck that went on for several days - it would pick a place and I would feel loads of tugging and pulling and then it would release and move on to another spot and do the same - even made my back muscles go into involuntary spasm! And I also had loads of stuff rattling across my upper back and down my hepatic tubes in my right side - felt like rocks sometimes! :lol: .

    It went on for weeks - at one point I thought it was never going to stop. Then I had stuff going through across my back past my spine around waist level - that would make me jump every time it hit the nerves! That's stopped too now. If I hadn't experienced it all, I never would have believed it. I think I only could feel it because everything was so swollen in my chest cavity. It has gone down a lot - not completely yet, but much better. I have had stuff going on in my upper left quadrant for years so there is obviously quite a bit of damage in there.

    I have come a long way in three years, and even further over the last 14 months. I forgot another of my symptoms that has now gone was the 'all-over' body pounding that would often keep me awake at night as my body struggled to digest my food. I could feel my pulse everywhere, even in my toes and my poor heart would be banging out of my chest. Night after night after night.

    Some of my damage goes back decades. Some of my damage has continued to degenerate in all that time. My body has to work backwards undoing all the damage and restoring itself. It is possible that some of the damage is irreversible, but even if I can only heal some of it, that is better than not healing anything at all.
     
  11. sparkles

    sparkles · Well-Known Member

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    AliB
    I have to say that I personally think it is wrong and unpleasant that someone can insult your attempts at trying to promote your own health. From what I have just read you have been through a lot and have worked very hard to regain your failing health and that should be applauded not ridiculed. (And certain people should be more sensitive!!!!!) I have followed this debate and while I really don’t feel knowledgeable enough to want to take sides or comment on it I have found some interesting ideas. ...That is ideas on both sides of the argument which I am open to at this stage. I think this is an interesting first post from Millimole and while I agree there is a BIG bias in the title I think Mm also deserves more respect especially if Mm is truly a newbie who arrived on the forum just today.

    It is good sometimes to be able to stand back and detach a little and on this occasion it is easy for me as I truly am a learner and a novice. However, my own bias is now towards unprocessed and natural foods and much of what you say resonates with me. Like you I feel I have been robbed of my health for a couple of years. Don’t know why and am struggling to regain it and to understand what happened to take it away. There is something about being fit one minute and long term invalid the next, especially when you see no end in sight. Fortunately I think I have turned the corner and I believe rightly or wrongly low carb has positively contributed to that along with getting rid of sugar and heavily processed foods from my diet. Once the connection is made to highly processed foods and the means of modern production is investigated (where fast =profit driven and big = more profit, stuff the safety and the quality) and thought about it is hard not to feel angry that it is allowed and encouraged to continue to the detriment of the health of so many. I do blame my self and my greed but I also now hold to account the whole capitalist system around food, production and profit. I know I cant fight it other than to shop healthily and contentiously. I realise now I have to look out for myself, we all do: not just in health care but in food. I can’t change the world but I can grow my own, shop locally and ethically and refuse to support the giants. This is a complete change of direction for me but I am already committed. I agree totally with your comments about breads and grains and the lost knowledge of older generations which had taken so long to develop. I think it is a shame to let those things slip away because the fast world of capitalism can no longer accommodate them. I can and will pick up and try to keep them alive for and by myself. Ali your posts are inspirational to me at times and I can see where you have been and the hard road you travel. That you want to share what you have found and feel passionate about it is totally understandable. All I can say is well done, keep it up!
    Your chin that is…
    Sparkles.
     
  12. AliB

    AliB Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    It's not about what I would consider to be low - or high fat for that matter.

    The criteria for low-fat is that generally set by the Government guidelines and that is supposedly the way many people eat today. And sadly, much of the fat they do eat is pretty awful stuff.

    The criteria for high fat often differs between one person and another but I suppose that high fat in terms of a ketogenic type diet would come in at between 60 - 70%. I would think that the low threshhold would have to come in at anything under around 20%. We have to have some fat in the diet, and some of that should be saturated. But then even 'saturated' fats aren't all saturated. Personally I prefer saturated fats because I would rather trust the stable fats that have been used for thousands of years than the modern processed highly unstable vegetable oils that turn into 'varnish' when heated. The only exception is olive oil.

    I don't weigh my fat - some people do - but assess what I eat by tablespoon. Some days it may be slightly more or less than others. I usually have two or three tablespoons of butter or ghee and slightly more of coconut oil, plus a little lard and sometimes olive oil. (Some people pick up their ratios from the likes of 'Fitday'). Fortunately I never did jump on the low-fat bandwagon - it never did make any sense to me - we have a gallbladder - why would we have that if we weren't designed to eat fats in quantity?

    My Dad used to moan at me for slathering butter on everything, but I kind of feel somewhat vindicated on that now. Might have done him more good if he'd upped the butter. The heart likes fats. One other thing I picked up during my research is that women in cultures who consume a lot of fat (like those in Yucatan for instance) don't suffer with Menopasual symptoms. I have to say that although I have had quite a lot of other issues I have never had any obvious Menopausal symptoms at all, so may be there is something in the fats that has supported that.

    If I wasn't on the healing diet I probably would have a bit less, but the fats help to remove toxins, and they are certainly doing that. Coconut oil has been my saviour over the last three years, as food, as hand cream, deodorant, for healing (healed a very severe burn to my left hand within weeks). It's amazing stuff. A diabetic friend has had a foot ulcer that wouldn't respond to any prescription treatment. It has gradually been healing with the use of coconut oil.

    Thanks Sparkles, you made my day.....well early hours of the morning anyway :D. Time I went to bed. Nite everyone.
     
  13. Ka-Mon

    Ka-Mon · Well-Known Member

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    From what I've seen people eat and from reports of fat consumption of the population' your above statement is not entirely right. Yes, there are people who who stick to these guidelines but the majority do not and hence the reason why the Government drew up these "guidelines" on the recommendation of the Chief Medical Officer and other Professional HCPs.

    Every time I go into a cafe/restaurant I see people eating very fatty meat/sausages fried in lard or oils (or butter in more "high class" restaurants). Fish and chips fried in oil that is more like lard than anything else, kebabs fat dripping from the side of their mouths etc. so I think it is safe to say that the majority of people do consume lot more fats than what the Government suggests.

    Yes and according to the professionals the "pretty awful stuff" is the saturated fats that do the damage, all the professionals of the world can't be wrong and a handful who are against right, surely :?:



    60-70% of the daily diet? :? But that only leaves about 30-40% to fill the rest of the plate.

    Let's assume a that someone puts (roughly) 300g of food on his/her plate, that would mean 180-210g of fat and only about 90-120g (combined) for veg/protein/other nutrients that one needs to (or should) consume daily. That is much too much fat and not enough room left for other good foods one needs.

    And if someone was to eat that 3 times a day then that would be 510 to 630g of fat a day. :shock: :shock: and if the portions are bigger then this figure will be a lot higher as well.

    If we use the same 300g then at 20% the calculations would be 60g at each meal with a total of 180g a day, even that is way above the Governments/Professionals recommendation and probably is what the majority consume each day anyway., more for those who eat larger portions.

    Mathematically, in both examples it seems that the majority do eat a lot of fat.

    A question that you might be able to answer for me:

    How much (invisible) fat is still left in a piece of meat after all the visible fat has been cut off, any ideas?


    That's your personal choice and I don't think you'll find any one who would try to force to stop eating what you want to.

    It would have been very helpful if you gave me an rough "guesstimation" in weight of your daily fat consumption to help me understand better but from what I can guess of your above statement it really does not sound like a lot unless you eat that amount 2-3 times a day.


    If you've never "jumped on that low-fat bandwagon" then how comes you suffered from all those illnesses you mentioned in your posts? Surely if fats are good then you should not have?

    Surely there has to be a limit whereby gallbladder will not be able to cope if the "quantity" is exceeded and 510 to 630g of fat a day way over that limit.

    What about those of us whose gallbladder have been removed, is it still safe for us to eat loads of fat and what happens to the fat we no longer fit the "designer" description? (PS: I know, not one of my best jokes but not the worst either. :lol: )


    "Might" but then again maybe not, don't know your dad so can't comment on that.


    A "fatty heart" is not very healthy and has, to my knowledge, killed many people.

    This is one area that I really can't comment on. :lol: but "maybe" this and "maybe" that sounds more like an experiment than a proven fact to me.

    I am guessing that your above statement (highlighted in red) means that you agree that those who do not need to go on a "healing diet" do not have to eat lot of fats like yourself or others who follow the same diet, am I right?

    I am also assuming that there is no benefit for diabetics in consuming "loads of fats" unless like yourself they go/need to go on a "healing diet", am I right here also?

    Thanks for taking the time to reply in such depth.
     
  14. phoenix

    phoenix Type 1 · Expert

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    Sorry, I had no intention of writing anything more in this thread but just to clarify something:
    diet percentages are usually in terms of energy ie calories rather than weight of food.
    eg 70% fat, 20% protein, 10% carb would be a very high fat low carb diet

    if a person eats 1800 calories in a day
    70% would be 1260 calories, fat has 9 calories per gram : 140g fat
    20% would be 360 calories, protein has roughly 4 calories per gram :90g protein
    10% would be 180 calories, carbs have roughly 4 calorie per gram : 45 g carb.
    .

    In pratice most people on this forum probably don't eat 50% of their diet as carbs, so inevitably the fat and or protein percentages will be higher.
    To put amounts into context the average fat intake in the UK is about 83g fat a day, thats 37% of total energy but averages cover a lot of variability. (individual but also variations according to region, ethnicity and household income)
     
  15. Ka-Mon

    Ka-Mon · Well-Known Member

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    Because I asked for answers in grams I assumed that Ali meant 70%/20% of the total weight on the plate. Obviously I was wrong and appreciate you clearing that up for me.

    Still, 140g fat is only 50g more than the RDA and does not sound as much as what most would believe "loads of fat" to mean. Further more I am assuming that only a small portion of that is in fact saturated fats and rest made up of what is considered to be "good fats".

    Now the question is for me is how much saturated fat is included in the 90g of the RDA and how much is actually consumed by those who follow a "high fat diet" so that we can compare the difference between the two?
     
  16. viviennem

    viviennem Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    There was no potato in moussaka before the late 16th century.

    Viv 8)
     
  17. ailz

    ailz Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    From what I've read saturated fat is hard to work out as a lot of the fat in meat isn't saturated. I use butter, olive oil or coconut oil for cooking - coconut oil being very highly saturated. I eat nuts, meat, fish, eggs, and cheese, I put butter on any veg I'm forced to eat :oops: . I don't cut the fat off meat. Oh and I don't eat beef - as a child I caught TB from drinking milk and beef has always made me ill.

    I haven't got a clue as to how much fat I eat. How much of the fat I eat is saturated? Your guess would be as good (or probably better) than mine.

    Cheers
    Ailz
     
  18. Ka-Mon

    Ka-Mon · Well-Known Member

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    That's about 500 years since the potato was introduced into the moussaka than, so "hundreds of years".
     
  19. Hobnoblin

    Hobnoblin · Active Member

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    Wrunkelt was you Ken, wasn't he?

    Didn't you pose as a troll on another forum and lied about your diet and medication to wind up the locals?

    Pretty irresponsible of you if you did. Seeing as you were a senior mod of this place at the time.
     
  20. Sid Bonkers

    Sid Bonkers Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thats a fact Viv, but to be fair there were no potatoes in Europe until the 16th century :wink:
     
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