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Mastering diabetes

Discussion in 'Low Calorie Diets' started by Nicel, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. Nicel

    Nicel Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    An American lady has told me about this program it’s high carb but plant based and low fat. Anyone tried it? It’s the opposite of keto that made me very poorly
     
  2. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    The only trial that I have seen that compared a vegan low fat diet against standard of care didn't have great results.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677007/

    Screenshot 2019-12-27 at 09.09.49.png

    ViRTA seems to get much better or even DiRECT (Newcastle Diet) severe calorie restriction..

    What problems did you find you had with keto?
     
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  3. Veryanxious

    Veryanxious Don't have diabetes · Well-Known Member

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    I would say try that. Or try both diets. Thats what i am doing. Keto is a diet which would make your symptoms disappear but it mostly doesn't address the cause of it. You don't eat sugar, you will not spike. High carb diet for diabetes is built on principle that fat cause insulin resistance and one your remove all fats from diet the cells starts to become sensitive.
    Everyone is different, keep an open mind and give both diets a chance would be my advice.
    Thats what i am doing, i did keto/low carbs, had excellent a1c but the moment i eat carbs my intolerance shows. I am trying vegan diet to see if i can improve there.
     
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  4. Nicel

    Nicel Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks I’m mainly a vegetarian so keto is so so hard for me to maintain. Maybe vegan will be raised. I found keto made me vomit badly when I had carbs again. I couldn’t sustain it then binged on bad carbs for months after and put on more weight than I had lost.
     
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  5. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    Diet doctor has vegetarian keto food ideas and maybe check out Dr Carrie Diulus who is a vegan keto T1?
    I sincerely doubt that keto made you vomit maybe the introduction of extra carbs did?
     
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  6. Walking Girl

    Walking Girl Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I receive their mailings and listen to some podcasts. Ultimately, I felt a very low fat diet just wasn’t quite a fit for me. I decided on Dr. Furhmans plan instead.

    but, it’s very intriguing. And one of the founders, Cyrus Khambatta, has a PhD in nutritional biochemistry from UC Berkeley, and actually wrote his thesis on insulin resistance, so he’s certainly no light-weight when it comes to understanding the impact of food on metabolic health. Both he and his partner are T1’s with very interesting stories as to how they landed on low-fat plant based diets themselves. Lots of info on their website, as well as testimonials on there and on YouTube, from T1, T2, and T1.5. Lastly, Cyrus has a book coming out sometime later this year I think

    report back if you try it, I’d love to know your experience.
     
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  7. John93

    John93 · Active Member

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    I'm looking into various programs and have looked at Dr Fuhrman' s and the Mastering Diabetes. I'm now pretty convinced these people are probably the answer if you really want to reverse T2 diabetes and not just manage it. The thought of avoiding carbs the rest of my life sounds ridiculous and unsustainable, so I'm pretty convinced these programs have the answer. I know I could never cut them out or restrict them long term, so these programs have lots of appeal to me. Their big difference to low carb is that they put a big emphasis on restoring insulin sensitivity, which low carb doesn't even mention from what I can see. My understanding is if you fix insulin resistance, you can then eat plenty of carbs without the glucose spikes- to me that's really reversing diabetes. The Mastering Diabetes folks give keto a big thumbs down and the explanations by Cyrus (who is certainly well qualified to comment) make a lot of sense to me. https://www.masteringdiabetes.org/ketosis-ketogenic-diets-misleading/ Dr Fuhrman does seem a bit low carb for my liking but its in no way a low carb program. Explore deeply and see what makes sense and works for you.
     
  8. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    So John you seem to have done a lot of research.. have you finally decided what to try on yourself?

    Will be very interested to see your long term results.

    I hope you aren't suffering from Analysis Paralysis while your condition worsens..
     
  9. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I've never eaten a wholly plant based diet, but I did spend most of my adult life eating wholegrain high-carb low-fat and being terrified of eating too much meat and saturated fats.

    I ended up here.
     
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  10. LittleGreyCat

    LittleGreyCat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I am struggling to visualise how I would manage my BG on a high carb low fat plant based diet before the suggested benefits kick in.
    I am not averse to eating vegetarian although vegan might be a stretch, but at the moment carbohydrates send my BG sky high.
    Animal protein and fat is proving a relatively easy way to manage my BG at the moment.
    I will watch with interest but someone else can be the guinea pig on this one.

    On a side note (I will read the linked article) the simple explanation that fats cause IR so don't eat fats does sound remarkably like Ancel Keys on cholesterol.

    Edit: no link to the site, just to an analysis. Search gives lots of options. Is this the one?
    https://www.masteringdiabetes.org/

    Edit 2: if it is the above it seems to require an up front payment of $249 for a year of coaching. Or, presumably, buy the book.
    I found details of a study by survey of participants but no results posted as yet.
    Does anyone have a link to a detailed description of the diet, or is it a money up front thing?
     
    #10 LittleGreyCat, Jan 27, 2020 at 9:51 AM
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  11. LittleGreyCat

    LittleGreyCat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    https://www.masteringdiabetes.org/ketosis-ketogenic-diets-misleading/

    Umm...getting a bad feeling about this organisation and their scientific credibility.
    The linked page debunks keto as a diet, having first supplied its own definition which excludes beans and pulses. I eat beans and pulses and stay in ketosis. It claims keto diets exclude milk (but doesn't seem to mention double cream or cheese which are also dairy products).

    I am having trouble copying and pasting, but it claims your brain requires dietary carbohydrate to function.
    We know this is untrue.
    The parts (and only parts) of the brain which require glucose to function can be supplied by gluconeogenesis.
    Otherwise people on long term fasts would die from lack of glucose.

    Edit: Well, I've tried to persevere with the "debunking" of keto diets but have come close to "shouting at the Internet".
    The whole thing is a straw man exercise. State an incorrect hypothesis about keto diets and then proceed to debunk the incorrect hypothesis thus "proving your point".
    The misinformation (lies?) about the role of glucose in the brain is the one which strikes me most.

    First, dietary glucose is "essential" for brain function.
    Second, in the absence of dietary glucose the liver generates an emergency source of energy for the brain, ketones.

    As noted above there are parts (but only parts) of the brain which require glucose. Much of the brain can obtain energy from ketones but for certain areas ketones cannot pass the blood/brain barrier and glucose is required. However this can be generated from fats and proteins by gluconeogenesis (if my shaky education holds up, gluco (glucose) neo (new) genesis (creation) or creation of new glucose by the body).

    The role of insulin, and the keto view of it, is also very "straw man". Suggesting that anyone on a keto diet regards "any insulin as bad" is wildly inaccurate.

    The debunkathon also doesn't seem to mention the role of insulin in fat storage.
    https://www.diabetes.co.uk/body/insulin.html
    As far as I understand it insulin prompts the cells to take up glucose, firstly store it as glycogen, then when full the fat cells are prompted to take up the excess glucose and convert it to triglycerides and store it. As fat.

    Which leads to the conclusion that insulin stores excess carbohydrates as fat.

    Sigh.

    The long term effects of a keto diet are also pretty weird.

    I am sure that all long term adherents to a ketogenic diet are suffering from most (if not all) of these symptoms. {Sarcasm for those not UK based}.

    I am afraid that at this point I regard the debunking page as scientifically doubtful and morally very doubtful.
    Looks remarkably like a money making scheme based on faux science.
     
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    #11 LittleGreyCat, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  12. John93

    John93 · Active Member

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    and the problem with making money for providing a service is?.........
     
  13. John93

    John93 · Active Member

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  14. John93

    John93 · Active Member

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    I hope you aren't suffering from Analysis Paralysis while your condition worsens..[/QUOTE]

    no, definitely not - doing a little research is worth it - proceeding well with the analysis - an update...... definitely wont go carnivore as bowel cancer and chronic constipation doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me and pretty sure living a life of deprivation eating no carbs only sounds marginally less fun, so keto or low carb not looking good either. I've narrowed it down to Dr Fuhrman, The Mastering Diabetes program or the Lime program
     
  15. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    Neither of which are any more or less likely on the carnivore diet of course...
     
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  16. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    Well, that depends entirely on whether the service provided is worth the money, doesn't it?

    At the moment, from the reading I have done, the 'evidence' and discussion on this (and many other threads on the forum), then I personally class the HCLF plant based way of eating as something I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. Nor would I be willing to spend money on something I can easily research and implement myself without shelling out the big $$$s.

    As others have said, if it floats your boat, you are happy with their 'science' claims (I am NOT) and you want to try it for yourself, then go for it. We are all responsible for the things we do to our body, the food we put into it, and we all have to live with the consequences.

    Also, like others have said, I would be very interested in hearing back how your N=1 experiment goes, body weight, HbA1c, daily blood glucose readings, food enjoyment, exercise, energy levels, supplement needs, overall health, and so on. Always good to hear what different choices people make and what works for them.

    Unlikely (dead cert) that I will ever eat like that myself, since I have wheat and soya and gluten intolerances, my gut reacts badly to fibre, FODMAPS, and various veg trigger inflammation and arthritis flare ups, so I feel healthiest on keto carnivore. But horses for courses. If your horse is pulling you down the WFPB HCLF racetrack, then I hope it works for you.

    Ed. For typo
     
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    #16 Brunneria, Jan 27, 2020 at 11:54 AM
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  17. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Indeed it is. Beaten only by years of intense research combined with personal experimentation and practical experience. Whatever works for the individual, of course, but I expect you're going to have a hard time convincing the majority on these boards that doubling down on carbohydrate is going to fix their diabetes. Good luck though.
     
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    #17 Jim Lahey, Jan 27, 2020 at 12:10 PM
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  18. Juicyj

    Juicyj Type 1 · Moderator
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    Hello @John93 Can you advise if you are diabetic yourself and what your association to this site is ?
     
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  19. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Master
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    @John93 - for how long have you actually lived your proposed lifestyle?
     
  20. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I have just seen in another discussion thread that this person consumes ~700g per day of carbohydrate and uses insulin, so I am guessing type 1 diabetes.
     
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