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Mastering diabetes

Thanks for the heads up @Jim Lahey

@John93 It would be helpful to members if you could complete your profile so we can see your diabetes type and treatment.
 
John93 said:
The thought of avoiding carbs the rest of my life sounds ridiculous and unsustainable, ............... Their big difference to low carb is that they put a big emphasis on restoring insulin sensitivity, which low carb doesn't even mention from what I can see. ...........My understanding is if you fix insulin resistance, you can then eat plenty of carbs without the glucose spikes- to me that's really reversing diabetes.
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It sounds more ridiculous and unsustainable than avoiding life essential fats to you? presumably if you drain the cells of fat they will fill up again, thus meaning it’s life long management as opposed to cure? Oh that’s the argument against keto isn’t it?

And considering fats are essential for life and carbs aren’t thats a point to keto in my book - along with not being hungry. And not having high cholesterol and triglycerides, and maintaining weight loss with little effort......

Low carb and keto very definitely do mention improved insulin resistance. I suggest you read a bit more about it before making that claim.

I finally agree with a sentence. Insulin resistance is the key factor to overcome.
 
John93 said:
and the problem with making money for providing a service is?.........
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If it turns out that you are a liar misrepresenting the science to justify charging money for a bogus "cure" then you are an out and out confidence trickster.

This may or may not be the case, but if it is then I would feel quite justified in objecting.
As I said, inaccurate science does not build confidence.

I have no objection to people who have a proven track record in science (Volek and Phinney spring to mind) setting up a commercial venture to provide advice on their nutritional theories. They did, however, provide a lot of free advice first, and published papers.

Prof. Roy Taylor (who is no an LCHF die hard) has a book out. Again, no problems with that because again there was a lot of peer reviewed science freely available prior to the publication of the book.
 
bulkbiker said:
I hope you aren't suffering from Analysis Paralysis while your condition worsens..
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John93 said:
no, definitely not - doing a little research is worth it - proceeding well with the analysis - an update...... definitely wont go carnivore as bowel cancer and chronic constipation doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me and pretty sure living a life of deprivation eating no carbs only sounds marginally less fun, so keto or low carb not looking good either. I've narrowed it down to Dr Fuhrman, The Mastering Diabetes program or the Lime program
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I'm carnivore after low-carb and, in the past, significant time wholly plant-based. I don't have and haven't got constipation on any of these. More likely to get the runs!


Edited by moderator for clarity
 
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yes, type 2 but controlled with exercise and pretty much following the ADA diet, (vegetarian version) which stops it getting worse if I keep up the exhausting exercise regime, so looking at a diet that will reverse it and not need so much exercise. as mentioned previously, I've concluded being a carnivore keto is totally out of the question and the restrictiveness of keto or low carb would be something I know I could tolerate long term, so I see no other option than the low fat vegan diet with lots of whole foods, complex carbs. That seems to be offered by 3 or 4 programs that seem to have good results. I also see now that the ADA specifically mentions plant based diets (PBD) as an option they endorse. Now just investigating the program provides to see what exactly they offer. I'm ruling out live in programs as they only seem available in USA and the cost of that rules them out. Thank you everyone for the interest shown in my journey of exploration. Happy to keep you posted on what I do.
 
John93 said:
I also see now that the ADA specifically mentions plant based diets (PBD) as an option they endorse.
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The ADA also now (in the last month!) endorse low carb as the most effective strategy. But as you say it has to suit you and your morals and be sustainable long term. For instance a vegan might find it very difficult to be keto (but possible with determination). But unsuitable for person individually is not the same as unsuitable for diabetics in general.

incidentally a lot of people start low carb/ keto believing it’s not for them and are very surprised how easy they find it once adjusted.
 
HSSS said:
The ADA also now (in the last month!) endorse low carb as the most effective strategy. But as you say it has to suit you and your morals and be sustainable long term. For instance a vegan might find it very difficult to be keto (but possible with determination). But unsuitable for person individually is not the same as unsuitable for diabetics in general.

incidentally a lot of people start low carb/ keto believing it’s not for them and are very surprised how easy they find it once adjusted.
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Do you have a reference for this statement?

I believe they said *lowering* carbs has proved most effective. Keeping in mind 80% of diabetics are overweight or obese upon diagnosis, all macronutrients need to be lowered to reduce body fat. The rest of the statement Where they said lowering carbs was the most effective went on to discuss various WOEs as effective, as long as they lower excess body weight.

I have no knowledge of them stating low carb is the most effective strategy.
 
Walking Girl said:
Do you have a reference for this statement?

I believe they said *lowering* carbs has proved most effective. Keeping in mind 80% of diabetics are overweight or obese upon diagnosis, all macronutrients need to be lowered to reduce body fat. The rest of the statement Where they said lowering carbs was the most effective went on to discuss various WOEs as effective, as long as they lower excess body weight.

I have no knowledge of them stating low carb is the most effective strategy.
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what the ADA actually said in the journal Diabetes Care in 2019 was:

What is the best weight loss plan for individuals with diabetes?
For purposes of weight loss, the ability to sustain and maintain an eating plan that results in an energy deficit, irrespective of macronutrient composition or eating pattern, is critical for success (160–163). Studies investigating specific weight loss eating plans using a broad range of macronutrient composition in people with diabetes have shown mixed results regarding effects on weight, A1C, serum lipids, and blood pressure (102,103,106,164–171). As a result, the evidence does not identify one eating plan that is clearly superior to others and that can be generally recommended for weight loss for people with diabetes (172).
 
John93 said:
what the ADA actually said in the journal Diabetes Care in 2019 was:

What is the best weight loss plan for individuals with diabetes?
For purposes of weight loss, the ability to sustain and maintain an eating plan that results in an energy deficit, irrespective of macronutrient composition or eating pattern, is critical for success (160–163). Studies investigating specific weight loss eating plans using a broad range of macronutrient composition in people with diabetes have shown mixed results regarding effects on weight, A1C, serum lipids, and blood pressure (102,103,106,164–171). As a result, the evidence does not identify one eating plan that is clearly superior to others and that can be generally recommended for weight loss for people with diabetes (172).
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If you read the original post:
HSSS said:
The ADA also now (in the last month!)
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The revised statement was in January 2020, I believe. So later than your quote. I think it may have been posted elsewhere on the forum, but not 100% sure on that.
 
Walking Girl said:
Do you have a reference for this statement?

I believe they said *lowering* carbs has proved most effective. Keeping in mind 80% of diabetics are overweight or obese upon diagnosis, all macronutrients need to be lowered to reduce body fat. The rest of the statement Where they said lowering carbs was the most effective went on to discuss various WOEs as effective, as long as they lower excess body weight.

I have no knowledge of them stating low carb is the most effective strategy.
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In which case wouldn’t they have said lowering weight and not specified carbs! They actually go on to say lowering carbs can be integrated into various ways of eating. This is in the eating patterns section not weight loss. Another section on weight management doesn’t determine which eating style just discusses the benefits of weight loss
 
John93 said:
what the ADA actually said in the journal Diabetes Care in 2019 was:

What is the best weight loss plan for individuals with diabetes?
For purposes of weight loss, the ability to sustain and maintain an eating plan that results in an energy deficit, irrespective of macronutrient composition or eating pattern, is critical for success (160–163). Studies investigating specific weight loss eating plans using a broad range of macronutrient composition in people with diabetes have shown mixed results regarding effects on weight, A1C, serum lipids, and blood pressure (102,103,106,164–171). As a result, the evidence does not identify one eating plan that is clearly superior to others and that can be generally recommended for weight loss for people with diabetes (172).
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I’m referencing a more recent issue than this.
 
OK folks. Drum roll please.............after lots of research into what diabetes reversal program I've decided to try and having explained earlier why carnivore, keto, and low carb were options I had to rule out, it came down to choosing between the ones that offered good diet options for a vegetarian like me, living in Australia

They were narrowed down to; the Mastering Diabetes online program in the US https://www.masteringdiabetes.org/plans/diy-full/ the Dr Fuhrman 20 day quickstart program (online) one also in the US https://www.drfuhrman.com/elearning...uick-start-program-to-reverse-type-2-diabetes and the Australian one called The Lime Program https://www.reversediabetes.com.au/index.htm There was also another one called E4 Diabetes Solutions in the US https://alive.e4.io/e4-alive-simple...t=2001sspc&utm_term=ff&contactId=~Contact.Id~

In the end I chose the Aussie one. While it wasn't the cheapest, being local was good, but the clincher for me was the offer of fully refunding the coaching fees if it didn't get the results from an agreed coaching plan. The E4 one had a similar offer but was going to get pretty expensive and seemed to be doing much the same as the Lime Program. Starts off with a batch of 14 blood tests and goes from there. let's see what happens and thanks for helping me reach this decision with some robust feedback and good arguments suggesting various options.
 
Interesting that it has 2 outright lies on its diet page..

Screenshot 2020-01-28 at 09.51.14.png

Be very interested to hear how you get on.. good luck.
 
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