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Neuropathy Garbage

Discussion in 'Type 2 Diabetes' started by Stephen Lewis, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. Stephen Lewis

    Stephen Lewis Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I have severe nerve pain in my feet and have to take pregabalin to help with sleep etc. The garbage is that this is supposed to be damage to the nerves that cannot be cured and/or damage to the capillaries. You may remember as a child that stopping blood flow to the feet caused pins and needles. The nerves were providing a warning that you needed to change your sitting position. In fact the main purpose of the nerves was originally to provide warnings of danger. Pregabalin may help the pain but it does not treat the cause - so typical of drug companies to treat symptoms as this keeps the money rolling in!

    I even get more discomfort when there is a quick increase in air pressure. The nerves responding to increased pressure.

    Does anyone know of a treatment that will help improve the blood flow except for high blood pressure tablets which did help a couple of years ago?
     
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  2. Indy51

    Indy51 Type 2 · Expert

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    My understanding of neuropathy is that the root cause is spikes in blood glucose damaging micro blood vessels. So treating the cause is to control blood glucose levels. It certainly worked for me - when first diagnosed I already had signs of neuropathy which thankfully have all reversed since I got my BG to normal levels. These days the only time I get symptoms is when I exceed my carbohydrate intake and push my BG over 8mmol.

    Some people swear by R-ALA supplements, others by CBD oil or PEA.
     
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  3. Tipetoo

    Tipetoo Type 2 · Expert

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    In the summer edition of Circle (Diabetes Queensland mag) their is an advert for Wesley Hyperbaric, which treats a number of diabetic related problems with oxygen in a hyperbaric chamber.

    Your GP may be able to recommend / refer you to a hospital /clinic that has a similar service to this Australian one.

    https://www.wesleyhyperbaric.com.au/how-does-hbot-work/
     
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  4. Antechinus

    Antechinus Don't have diabetes · Well-Known Member

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    I think neuropathy is a little more complex than just damage to the capillaries that feed the nerve. Causes of neuropathy are not well understood but there is connection to high blood sugars and length of diabetes (glycosilation would be the main cause here); genetics plays a big part and there are many people without diabetes that have neuropathy; Vit B and or Vit D deficiency can lead to it; alcohol is another cause, Hi BMI another factor, and smoking (which really does stuff up the peripheral arteries like diabetes does). Also there are 5 different nerve types, based on diameter, and all, or only one, can be effected with neuropathy. Usually it is the smaller fibres that are affected first, and these can be very painful. These are pressure and temperature sensing nerves, and often worse at night due to nightly fluid retention. Sometimes it is the sensory part of the nerve that is effected, whether by glucose or vascular restriction such as in diabetic dermopathy.
    There is some complex chemical pathways within nerve fibers that are interfered with by glucose and this can lead to nerve fiber damage as well.
    Also nerves become super sensitive when they are being damaged and when healing. There is a threshold where nerves are painful while being damaged, and then become numb as the damage stops conduction. As the nerves regenerate and fall back below the pain threshold the pain comes back in, until they are healed enough to conduct properly again. Healing nerves are sensitive.
    Things to do help are get your VIT C, B &D checked as these all effect nerve health, give up the booze and control blood sugars.
    Smoking is dumb at any time, but smoking with diabetes is seriously stupid.
    Some people believe that small fiber neuropathy begins during the prediabetes phase of the disease and so when a person finally diagnosed with diabetes significant damage has already begun. So early intervention is really important, its just getting doctors and DN's to understand the need for early assessment and care.
    I'm still learning about peripheral neuropathy, it's a really complex area of medicine.
     
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  5. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    The talk Sarah Halberg gave where she said that Type 2 diabetics should do the opposite of what the mainstream advocate might applicable. I had tingling in both hands and feet (as well as other diabetic complications). My neuropathy reversed by walking and static cycling (as well as 10 kg dumbbell workouts as general HiT based workouts). This was painful at first but I pushed through. I have 100% reversal of neuropathy, and at my diabetic assessment on 17th Dec easily passed the foot testing, I was told my foot pulses were very strong. Now this may not work for you, but it did for me, not even a twinge.

    I put off heavy weights for years as research suggested that persons with high blood pressure should avoid heavy weights - on Monday at my assessment my blood pressure was 118 / 72 test 1, 120 / 72 test 2, previously anywhere from around 137 - 140 over around 80 - again ignored the advice; but I did prep my body with low carb, lots of cardio and lighter weights, which must have had a bearing.
     
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  6. Stephen Lewis

    Stephen Lewis Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the information. I have been going to the gym - weight lifting and treadmill - for several years and about 5 times a week for the past few months.
     
  7. Stephen Lewis

    Stephen Lewis Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Don't smoke, have maybe 3 1/2 pints of pale ale a year, take vitamin B12, have lost 20 lbs in the past 6 months so BMI is good, my last 2 A1Cs were 6.0 and 6.3 and my 3 times daily bg is averaging 6.0 for the last month. The problem started 17 months ago when my so called specialist cut my Metformin dose in half and my A1C shot up to 11.3 in November 2017 and the pain started. Got worse on insulin from last February.
    But I don't think the nerves are in any way damaged. They are hyper sensitive especially to pressure so are sending the full message plus some to the brain. Not sure why hypersensitive would be classed as damaged. Just need a cure not a symptom treating drug.
     
  8. Stephen Lewis

    Stephen Lewis Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks I will look into this.
     
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  9. Stephen Lewis

    Stephen Lewis Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the information. Sorry for being stupid but what are R-ALA supplements, CBD oil and PEA as I would like to investigate and maybe give it/them a try.
     
  10. Indy51

    Indy51 Type 2 · Expert

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    If you look in the Alternative Treatments section - https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/category/alternative-treatments.10/ - of the forum, there are quite a few threads about ALA (alpha lipoic acid), eg.

    https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/alpha-lipoic-acid-works.158137/

    CBD is an abbreviation for cannabadiol - it's a non psychoactive version of cannabis/hemp. Likewise, many threads about it around the forum.

    PEA is an abbreviation for palmitoylethanolamide and I started a thread about it here:
    https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/palmitoylethanolamide-anyone-heard-of-it-used-it.158836/
     
  11. Indy51

    Indy51 Type 2 · Expert

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    Just adding: there's a mix of supplements known as the DPN cocktail that has been recommended for many years:

    The DPN cocktail has three components: Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA), Gamma Linolenic Acid (GLA) as contained in Evening Primrose Oil (EPO), and Vitamin C.

    If you do an internet search for 'DPN cocktail', you should be able to find more detail.
     
  12. Indy51

    Indy51 Type 2 · Expert

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    Another postscript - I believe Borage Oil is an even richer source of GLA than Evening Primrose Oil.
     
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  13. Stephen Lewis

    Stephen Lewis Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    OK So cannabis is now legal in Canada so I might have to try one of the derivatives. I have been taking ALA but it is rarely at the pharmacies near me. I will check out the thread for PEA. Thanks for the help.
     
  14. Stephen Lewis

    Stephen Lewis Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the help and information everyone. Lots to keep me going.
     
  15. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I had severe and sometimes debilitating peripheral neuropathy pain that was completely eliminated with a ketogenic diet. The hypersensitivity you’re experiencing is likely either nerve damage occurring or nerve damage repairing.
     
  16. Crocodile

    Crocodile Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi Stephen,

    Sorry that you are having trouble. I too have neuropathy in the feet but not quite at your level. Today I have only a minor amount of numbness which I can live with. Sometimes the pain comes back but I get a fair bit of warning and can take action. I realise everybody is different but what worked for me was a combination of remedies rather than any single one.

    1. Absolute full control of blood glucose. I've linked a research paper for you to read. It is very informative with the conclusion that neuropathy is worsened by very short duration spikes in blood glucose levels which are otherwise undetected by HbA1c routine testing.

    https://dmsjournal.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/1758-5996-6-139

    Essentially, this involves drastic reductions in carbohydrate intake even if A1c is good. It takes a long time for symptoms to subside. In my case, almost a year.

    2. I can vouch for the effectiveness of R-ALA but I needed quite a high dose ( 800mg per day ). 400mg twice per day. The R part is very important. Just ALA, not so useful.

    3. I was sceptical at first but I bought a TENS machine because it wasn't so expensive. I'm using an Ultima Neuro device

    http://www.drhelpbooks.com/shop/

    Much to my surprise it actually works quite well.

    I still have numbness but no pain. All three work together and one by itself in my case wasn't enough.

    Hope it works out for you.
    Glenn
     
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  17. Stephen Lewis

    Stephen Lewis Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Glenn. Lots of help here. "Beam my feet up - Scotty"!
    I am thinking of using the Freestyle Libre for BG testing so that I can get a regular and continuous testing even though it is not covered where I live. I do follow a low carb diet - usually around 80 mg per day with between 1000 and 1200 calories but obviously there are ups and downs in the BG levels over a day. I will certainly look at the article and web site.
     
  18. Crocodile

    Crocodile Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    It's OK Steve, I've had lots of help here as well. I note that your A1c is still in the 6s. I didn't see improvements until I was in the mid 5s. Takes a lot of discipline. I'm on 60g carbs per day. Even that's high by some people here. I've made fairly extensive use of the GI values to keep the spikes down as well. It's not an easy path as different foods affect people in different ways and some of the tables aren't accurate but it's a good reference point and with a meter and testing it can be assessed easy enough over time.
    Glenn
     
    #18 Crocodile, Dec 20, 2018 at 6:05 AM
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  19. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Master
    Staff Member Administrator

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    Stephen - Have you ever been a smoker, and if you were, when did you stop?

    Secondly, have you been taking ALA or R-ALA. I've not used it myself, but my understanding is the R-ALA is much more effective than straightforward ALA, and worth paying the premium for.

    I think those who use it in the UK, often source it online, maybe even via Amazon, but don't quote me on that!.
     
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  20. NicoleC1971

    NicoleC1971 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Maybe not so much damaged as not signalling correctly? If you were to search Alpha Lipoeic Acid you'd come up with some useful information. It is an anti oxidant reckoned to be useful for this issue in R form. Another rabbit hole to go down - sorry! I did some research because my father in law really suffers with this after 20+ years of badly treated (imo) type 2.

    Obviously, it is critical that you keep both blood glucose and insulin resistance low which is achieved mainly by diet . The exercise should help to reduce post meal bg spikes (post prandial walk or cycle) and increase glcogen storage capacity in your muscles (doing weights) to ensure you become more insulin sensitive or less insulin resistance. Metformin reduces bgs by inhibiting glucose production from the liver but doesn't solve the root cause of the resistance problem.

    Re the gym it may be worth checking with a trainer that you are taking your heart rate up enough when cycling to produce a training effect and make it true interval training. I am a trainer and thought I'd menton that because I do see members getting into a training rut where they aren't making progress with stamina or strength goals.
     
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