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P:E dieting

Discussion in 'Low-carb Diet Forum' started by bulkbiker, Mar 30, 2021.

  1. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    Noticed that @Goonergal mentioned dieting a la Ted Naiman and as I was thinking trying it out for myself too may as well start a thread on it.
     
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  2. LaoDan

    LaoDan Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Big fan of Teds work, I haven’t tried anything specific, just fiddling with the ratios.
     
  3. MrsA2

    MrsA2 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Summary, please for those who need to go to sleep now ?
     
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  4. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
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    Thanks for the tag @bulkbiker

    I think @Mbaker is an advocate of this too and I’ll also tag @DJC3 as she’s also interested.

    I’d steadily put on weight (all around the middle) for 18 months (lockdown did not help) and several attempts to change it hadn’t worked. Started experimenting with this after listening to a video on dietdoctor: https://www.dietdoctor.com/video/interviews/naiman-lcc2018 (think you may need to be a full member to see this, in which case the other one linked at the end of this post is similar).

    @MrsA2 - short summary is eat real foods, prioritise protein over fat, remove or limit added ‘refined’ fats (butter, cream etc). PE stands for Protein-Energy, with the idea being that the higher the protein to energy ratio, the better for preserving/developing muscle mass and decreasing body fat.

    The PE ratio is calculated by dividing the total grams of protein in a food stuff by the sum of the total grams of carbs plus fat. A ratio of 1 is recommended for maintenance (steak and eggs is his simple example) and above that for fat loss.

    See the attached pics - his graphics - for a very simple summary. He does also recommend short, intense, resistance exercise.

    Been giving this a whirl since the start of March, in a broad brush sort of way - i.e not macro tracking, rather eating more of the foods that have a PE ratio above 1 (and ideally 1.5 or higher) and less of those with a ratio below 1 - and omitting those below 0.6. For this purpose I’ve drawn up a spreadsheet of things I regularly eat, plus a few I’ve bought to try and calculated the PE ratio.

    I haven’t been doing the resistance exercises, and not even my usual walking as I’ve been under the weather for some time (plan to add them when I can). I’ve also not been weighing (do that once a month now) as this is more about body composition. However, my body shape has noticeably changed over the month - more shape around the waist; clothes looser, that sort of thing. It has also just clicked that when weighed at a hospital appointment yesterday, with more clothes than when I weigh at home, I was more than a full kilo lighter than last time I weighed at home. Enjoying the way of eating too.

    I have the kindle version of his book (the hardcover one is eye wateringly expensive) and it’s clear and well written, but not essential for grasping the concepts.

    Video below, plus some screenshots from my spreadsheet which shows how small changes make a difference to PE ratio.



    edited for typo
     

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    #4 Goonergal, Mar 31, 2021 at 6:32 AM
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
  5. annabell1

    annabell1 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for video I've started to follow him on twitter as was trying to work out his WOE as saw some information by Dr Andreas Eenfedt from diet doctor saying he had started to try out the PE diet so will have a listen. Impressive results well done
     
  6. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Is this the Atkin's diet?
     
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  7. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
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    No.
     
  8. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    In a nutshell it is based on prioritising protein over fat whilst still severely limiting carbs.

    So say pork fillet over bacon.
    Skinless chicken breasts over skin on.

    Don't drench food in butter (although not many successful ketoers do that anyway but still).

    Ted tries to simplify everything which often leads to a lack of nuance but overall it looks sound.

    I have had the book on my shelf for a while but just flipped through it for the second time.
     
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  9. DJC3

    DJC3 Type 2 · Expert

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    Thanks for starting the thread @bulkbiker and for the tag @Goonergal
    I’m reading and listening to as much as I can on this atm and it seems to make a lot of sense. I’ve always found protein more satiating than fat and struggled with the meagre amounts suggested by keto.
    I’ve found regular Hiit exercise really helpful too ( although I’m nowhere near his level of being able to pull myself up off the floor holding the doorframe). I know Bernstein has also advocated the daily ‘exercise muscles to fail’ system, alternating upper and lower body.
     
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  10. ianf0ster

    ianf0ster Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Where I personally have a problem with Ted Naiman's approach is that he appears to favour carbs over fats. I have seen some of his suggestions for P:E meals and they were too high in carbs for me.
    So I feel he's more interested in weight loss and body-building than in controlling diabetes.

    Edited to say that as a 70yr old with no interest in sport and weight back as low as it was in my 20ys, I have no interest in either weight loss or in body building - my wife wouldn't be impressed!
     
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  11. KK123

    KK123 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting post, I am looking forward to seeing how it goes.
     
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  12. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
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    I disagree. Especially with his more recent stuff. His theory is that high carbs + high fat are a toxic combination. I wouldn’t disagree. The PE ratio does allow for a higher proportion of carbs, but necessarily that would involve a far lower fat intake to get the ratio right. The carbs he suggests come from fibre. For me increasing protein alongside almost zero carbs allows for plenty of fat - I’m certainly not leaving the skin off any chicken or cutting fat off meat. Just choosing slightly different cuts.
     
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  13. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    It is worth ago, Diet Doctor are going higher protein. I had my suspicions due to comments Bret Scher has said regarding setting protein at 30% of calories in a couple of his last videos.

    This appears confirmed by the boss man.

    https://twitter.com/DrEenfeldt/status/1368967924938051589?s=20

    upload_2021-3-31_15-26-34.png
     
  14. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    I still think its more of a "tweak" rather than a replacement for a well formulated keto diet and intermittent fasting.

    I've crossed swords with Ted a few times on twitter about some of the things he has said, think we're about even at the moment.
     
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  15. LaoDan

    LaoDan Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Great stuff. Some of my thoughts.

    Upping protein definitely kicked me out of ketosis, some percentage is being used as energy. Gluconeogenesis isn’t as “ on demand “ as I thought.

    It’s super easy to get back into ketosis, just pull back a bit and up the fats.

    if I go too lean, I get crazy hungry, I need to up the fats.

    I play around with stuff, I.e. chicken breast and avocados. So I’m getting a different fat profile. I also do things like alternate meals. I.e ribeye and chicken breast, this works great!

    my goal is to build muscle and it’s working. But.. when it’s time to lean out, I know it’s not going to be easy, I’m probably going to go with something like 3 days lean, 1 day fat refead
     
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  16. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    I agree, that's what I have done is tweak Ketocarnivore. My second course platter I pushed out the berries for sardines, alongside, nuts and home made seed crackers with cheese - main meal was a Keto Chicken Tagine.

    All of the guru's have something that wrankle's, Paul Saladino I disagree with on the honey, as although he smashes insulin sensitivity, I still don't like the rise differential he gets....but he puts the case so well for other aspects.
     
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  17. Krystyna23040

    Krystyna23040 Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for posting this information. Just a quick question - do they mention anywhere if it is OK to use whey protein as I am definitely eating far to little protein and using it would help me boost my levels really easily.
     
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  18. LaoDan

    LaoDan Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Prefer whole food, but whey or casein protein is fine. Whey can raise BG levels a tad, so test it. Recently I’ve been making smoothies from egg whites, I buy it by the carton
     
  19. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
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    Direct quote from the book
    D276DE60-26B6-4486-8D70-5FE48B6DBA8E.jpeg
     
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  20. Krystyna23040

    Krystyna23040 Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. Will look at egg whites - I hadn't thought of that.
     
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