P:E dieting

No decrease in waist measurement or weight for days, then this morning another half a pound lost and just over 3/4 inch from waist - which makes 2 inches lost around waist since beginning April.

Also had a very unusually high fbg this morning of 6.6. I wonder if I have lost some liver fat and it has triggered this very unusually high morning reading.

Roggg said:

Alright, I've only just started paying attention to Ted Naiman and PE. My initial thoughts after watching a few interviews and lectures on YouTube, and skimming this thread, is it doesn't all quite hang together yet for me. I will do more review and see if it makes sense, but he seems to want to topple a lot of principles in low-carb/keto eating, but doesn't necessarily have the science to back it up. Of course I could be wrong, and I will keep digging.

My biggest concerns is it seems to consider fat and carbs as equivalent, which I dont believe is true for a T2 diabetic. It also seems to be circling back to the "calories in/calories out" model by taking a "mechanical engineering" approach and ignoring all the endocrinology.

I think that within the constraints of an already low-carb diet, it may be defensible that protein should be higher than is typical in a keto diet. I also think that vs the SAD, it's a clear improvement. But as a new theory of everything, I dont think it meets the burden of proof. Some of the interviews and lectures are pretty smug, and talks about keto as if it's a fad that has already passed. I find that a bit off-putting, although he seems pretty welcome in the low-carb community, so it might just be me.

Again, just first impressions.

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You approach things the same way I do, it took me months to eat high fat yogurt.

The science is there, over feeding protein studies result in better metrics. This is a sort of reference where Alan Aragan confirms more protein equates to better composition / metrics (he is a peer reviewed publisher who has worked with professional athletes):

Protein is scientically expensive to breakdown (thermic effect). Body builders use protein to obvious effect, so we have decades of practical visible knowledge also. This is not new, Protein Power was out in 1996, Eric Westman and Amy Berger say to priortise protein first.

Ted, does knock Keto and also does not give a free pass to the diets beginning with "V". I know this is about religiousity (consider his background at loma linda). His preferred foods are pasture raised eggs, shell fish, fish, grass fed beef, no seed oils, and low sugar fruit such as strawberries and avocado, this is definitely keto / carnivorous wholefoods which will produce ketones. He is consistent on these options on both his Instagram and Burn Fat Not Sugar website. I think Ted hates fat bombs, keto treats type keto.

I saw a recent interview where he said "keto" would be dead soon. I think that was ill advised, I would hope he as he said it is about the decline of internet searches.

Whilst he has a book, he has a practice where he takes pleasure in changing diabetic status, he really has earned his way to any remuneration he gets now. Equating fat and carbs as almost the same is context specific, I would like to see the evidence as he works within a context of net 100 grams of carbs; I don't agree with this for the majority.

Mbaker said:

The science is there, over feeding protein studies result in better metrics. This is a sort of reference where Alan Aragan confirms more protein equates to better composition / metrics (he is a peer reviewed publisher who has worked with professional athletes):

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That is very good to know.

This is a really long read, but fascinating on the topic of protein, gluconeogenesis, and ketosis. From Amy Berger.

http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html

Goonergal said:

This is a really long read, but fascinating on the topic of protein, gluconeogenesis, and ketosis. From Amy Berger.

http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html

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Thank you for posting this link. It is exactly what I.needed to read as I am still a little scared of upping my protein too more and had been wondering if the 120,g I ate yesterday was too much. Have bookmarked it to read again and also to read links it contains.

Goonergal said:

This is a really long read, but fascinating on the topic of protein, gluconeogenesis, and ketosis. From Amy Berger.

http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html

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Long read so for later but thanks for posting and thanks @Krystyna23040 for alerting me

A quick update. Three and a half pound loss since beginning of April and it looks like all of it from around my waist. Almost 2 inches lost from.waist and blood sugar levels definitely lower. So it looks like a lot of good things happening with liver and pancreas.

Typo (or senior moment) this morning. Should have typed almost 3 inches lost from waist.

Another summary of P.E. Diet. Some good devils advocate questions from Bret Scher to Ted Naiman:

Mbaker said:

Another summary of P.E. Diet. Some good devils advocate questions from Bret Scher to Ted Naiman:

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Thanks. Just listening now. Very interesting.

@Krystyna23040 thats a stunning inch loss!

Did my monthly ‘MOT’ this morning as I was away from home the past few days.

While the scales are still barely budging (1.5kg down since 1 March), cms are coming off here - 3cms each from chest and waist and 5cm (had to double check that one) from the ‘muffin top’!

More than happy with that as I’ve really only tweaked what I’m eating, having ditched the chocolate and nut butter before this latest shift.

Goonergal said:

@Krystyna23040 thats a stunning inch loss!

Did my monthly ‘MOT’ this morning as I was away from home the past few days.

While the scales are still barely budging (1.5kg down since 1 March), cms are coming off here - 3cms each from chest and waist and 5cm (had to double check that one) from the ‘muffin top’!

More than happy with that as I’ve really only tweaked what I’m eating, having ditched the chocolate and nut butter before this latest shift.

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That is really good. The tweaking is really working.

I have also ditched the nut butters and chocolate as well as the vat loads of cream.

I strongly suspect my inch loss around my waist is from fat in and around my liver and pancreas because my blood sugars are definitely improving. This fat didn't all go away with low carb, low protein and very high fat but the signs are good that adding protein will sort it.

Krystyna23040 said:

That is really good. The tweaking is really working.

I have also ditched the nut butters and chocolate as well as the vat loads of cream.

I strongly suspect my inch loss around my waist is from fat in and around my liver and pancreas because my blood sugars are definitely improving. This fat didn't all go away with low carb, low protein and very high fat but the signs are good that adding protein will sort it.

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So you are replacing fat with protein, reducing calories and losing weight. Why has nobody thought of that before?

@Goonergal and @Krystyna23040 brilliant and almost unbelievable results in such a short time.
Just finished listening to the podcast @Mbaker kindly posted. Very good, with some interesting comments on CGMs at the end I thought. It really would be interesting to see triglycerides in real time too.

Mbaker said:

Another summary of P.E. Diet. Some good devils advocate questions from Bret Scher to Ted Naiman:

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Thank you for posting this. I found it really interesting and helpful.

Saw this article being promoted on Twitter. Haven’t read it all yet, but looks to have some interesting stuff: https://www.dietdoctor.com/diet-doctor-team-members-try-higher-protein-low-carb-diet

Finding this thread very interesting as someone who has always struggled with Hi Fat and am going to give this a shot and see what impact it has on BG and weight.
Today
Carbs 38g
Fat 65g
Protein 126g

Goonergal said:

Saw this article being promoted on Twitter. Haven’t read it all yet, but looks to have some interesting stuff: https://www.dietdoctor.com/diet-doctor-team-members-try-higher-protein-low-carb-diet

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Thank you for posting this link. It was so interesting to read about the Diet Doctor's team members experiences with increasing protein in their diet. I read it twice and have bookmarked it to read again. I could really relate to their experiences with this protein-focused low-carb diet.

Krystyna23040 said:

Thank you for posting this link. It was so interesting to read about the Diet Doctor's team members experiences with increasing protein in their diet. I read it twice and have bookmarked it to read again. I could really relate to their experiences with this protein-focused low-carb diet.

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I agree, it’s really interesting. I’m particularly fascinated by the migraines bit as one of the benefits of keto/carnivore has been the complete cessation of my chronic migraines. Just recently I’ve had more headaches (not migraines, but headaches that made me take painkillers). However, I’ve also been ill (Long Covid), so that’s just as likely a suspect. The article prompted me to look through the food diary I’ve been keeping since towards the end of March and I couldn’t identify any patterns, so I’m sticking with the illness theory for now. I don’t want to have to start routinely tracking and tweaking macros - the whole point for me is to have something relatively loose and fluid.

Goonergal said:

I agree, it’s really interesting. I’m particularly fascinated by the migraines bit as one of the benefits of keto/carnivore has been the complete cessation of my chronic migraines. Just recently I’ve had more headaches (not migraines, but headaches that made me take painkillers). However, I’ve also been ill (Long Covid), so that’s just as likely a suspect. The article prompted me to look through the food diary I’ve been keeping since towards the end of March and I couldn’t identify any patterns, so I’m sticking with the illness theory for now. I don’t want to have to start routinely tracking and tweaking macros - the whole point for me is to have something relatively loose and fluid.

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I think you are right that it does sound highly likely that Long Covid is the culprit rather than the P.E. Diet.