Reversal of T2 by Vegan Diet

[Fuggs]

Has anyone practical experience of reversing or improving T2 D. by a radical change in dietary habits.?

The reason I ask is having reviewed the lectures of Neil Barnard [YouTube] re T2 and his claim that muscle insulin resistance is exacerbated by fat in cells that prevent glucose entering, and the hypothesis being remove completely all animal fats and dairy fats, [fish included] from the diet re balances matters on several front. effectively a vegan diet.

Fats having approximately twice the calories of carbs, can overall reduce bodyweight, and by reducing fats intracellulary, allows the insulin "key" to begin working again. I must admit it smacks a bit of the Framingham Study, which infuriates me personally that we were so successfully hoodwinks by big pharma.

There is is at the moment a huge amount of "propaganda" both from the low car, low fat, High Carb, High fats lobbies, the water seems to be getting very muddy as to which discipline is the most effective.

Does anyone have first hand information or ideally practical results from any of these processes. I dont want to get into a carnivore/vegetarian argument and ethics of meat production, but simply trying to clarify all the options. With so many MD's extolling the virtues of the different plans that's theirs is better than so and so, understandably because there are big book sales involved, it doesn't leave clearly defined options for us.

Goes without saying the NHS is of course crazy with their recommended nutrition system, but one could argue that effectively sells medication etc.etc.
Thanks

 

[Indy51]

No personal experience as I personally couldn't imagine anything worse for dietary satisfaction, but there's quite a long recent discussion you might find interesting:

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/freelee-banana-girl-hclf.78766/#post-969920

 

[SunnyExpat]

Removing fat, if like me, you were overweight at diagnosis, seems to be a very proven way to reduce insulin resistance.
I have to admit, I lost a lot of weight on a low fat, low calorie, diet, and saw marked improvement.
I can't really comment on how satisfying it is for others, but it was a diet, it worked, it reset my eating habits, so certainly I am in a much better condition for doing it, and eat a lot healthier now.
But not vegan though, but I avoid red meats, processed meats, and animal fats where I can, and I still watch the overall calories.

 

[Celeriac]

I was a vegetarian for 14 years and remember that I lost weight when I started that way of eating, even though I didn't intend to do so. I figure any big dietary change would do that though, before the body adjusts.

People say that eating vegetarian is healthy, but all the supermarkets have veggie ready meals now and Burger King for example, does veggie bean burgers and veggie bean wraps. If you look at the ingredients in some of these things, there are additives in many.

In fact, vegan food can seem pretty unhealthy to me, with all the fake bacon, fake cheese etc. As my husband has NCGS, I thought vegan could be gluten free and healthy but when I looked online at Vegancross, the vegan specialist, a lot of the stuff had additives.

Also, if you're vegan, it's difficult to get the essential amino acids, the fat soluble vitamins and B12 especially. There are Paleo vegans out there (Pegans, evidently) but it must be difficult to do.

I do think vegan can be healthy, if done right i.e. real food not processed and care over nutritional content. I just don't see it as some T2DM magic reversal bullet.

 

[dawnmc]

I was vegetarian for a few years. Always cooked my own stuff. Then I was diagnosed with diabetes, I found it hard to eat low carb. I was starving so began eating meat again. I was never one for eating fake food yuk. And soy is not healthy. I don't like quorn either.
I actually bought his book. Mind you I'm great at buying books but not following through.
By the way if you already have diabetes you can manage it but not reverse it.

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

"People say that eating an omnivorous diet is healthy, but all the supermarkets have ready meals now and Burger King for example, does burgers and wraps. If you look at the ingredients in some of these things, there are additives in many."

Any way of eating can be healthy or unhealthy. Just because products are available, doesn't mean people have to eat them.

As for the way of eating mentioned in the opening post, I don't think I could get past the high carb bit so don't fancy trying it.

 

[Fuggs]

Having tested some theories over the last few weeks my particular situation is:

Because of the dawn phenomena, my bg is usually 7/8 at 8am even if I go to bed at 4.5.

If I have a meal replacement shake, veggies etc. for breakfast and go for 45min walk my bg drops slowly to 6 ish until about 1500.
If I have 2 scrambled eggs same time, it drops about the same. But if I add a couple of tbls. of butter for with the scrambled egg, or have fried egg and bacon [in coconut oil, all I ever use] my bg drops like a stone to 4/5 by 1500 hrs.

It seems as though the butter fat signals straightaway to the brain I have eaten I dont need food and stays that way. I also dont feel hungry until 16/1700 hrs.
That may be horrendously unhealthy for low fat living but it certainly drops the bg big time.
Anyone else find that?

 

[Daibell]

Hi. I would disagree with you about reducing fats. Much of the fat stored in muscles causing insulin resistance will have come from carbs not fat. Carbs are very easily absorbed by the body (stomach) and if the body doesn't need the glucose it stores it as fat. Fat from food goes thru a much more complex process lower down the system; some is passed thru the body and energy is used to store any that is used. Many on this forum have benefited from a low-carb diet not just to reduce blood sugar but to reduce weight. The 'eat low-fat' mantra since the 70s is one of the causes of obesity and T2 as people have stuffed themselves with carbs instead. It's your choice to have a vegan diet but proteins do help the body feel full as fats do as well; carbs don't.

 

[kentish maid]

I have been told that I have reversed my diabetes but I never needed medication I follow a low carb diet and have what fats I can tolerate.

 

[Fuggs]

Hi. I would disagree with you about reducing fats. Much of the fat stored in muscles causing insulin resistance will have come from carbs not fat. Carbs are very easily absorbed by the body (stomach) and if the body doesn't need the glucose it stores it as fat. Fat from food goes thru a much more complex process lower down the system; some is passed thru the body and energy is used to store any that is used. Many on this forum have benefited from a low-carb diet not just to reduce blood sugar but to reduce weight. The 'eat low-fat' mantra since the 70s is one of the causes of obesity and T2 as people have stuffed themselves with carbs instead. It's your choice to have a vegan diet but proteins do help the body feel full as fats do as well; carbs don't.

It's not me suggesting reducing fats, see the first post. In my mind it seems fat in the diet increases satiety that's why low carb good fat intake seems to work for me. Icant however seem to get my carbs much below 80 a day. I love green sprouts and these are high in carbs. Maybe have to compensate with higher carbs by more exercise.....

 

[uart]

It seems as though the butter fat signals straightaway to the brain I have eaten I dont need food and stays that way. I also dont feel hungry until 16/1700 hrs.

Yep, this is exactly what happens with me as well. As you have discovered, low carb high fat seems to be the most healthy way of eating for many of us T2 diabetics.

That may be horrendously unhealthy

I eat meat and natural healthy fats (both saturated and unsaturated), but I also eat lots of low carb vegetables. Most modern research is showing that this way of eating is not at all unhealthy.

Hi. I would disagree with you about reducing fats. Much of the fat stored in muscles causing insulin resistance will have come from carbs not fat. Carbs are very easily absorbed by the body (stomach) and if the body doesn't need the glucose it stores it as fat.

I totally agree with this Diabell. With we T2s having very poor glucose metabolism, and with the glucose from those readily absorbed carbs basically just floating around in our bloodstream without being used, it's pretty much a "no brainer' that much of it is going to get converted to fat no matter how hard we try (at least if your T2 insulin resistance is bad enough).

 

[Brunneria]

Having tested some theories over the last few weeks my particular situation is:

Because of the dawn phenomena, my bg is usually 7/8 at 8am even if I go to bed at 4.5.

If I have a meal replacement shake, veggies etc. for breakfast and go for 45min walk my bg drops slowly to 6 ish until about 1500.
If I have 2 scrambled eggs same time, it drops about the same. But if I add a couple of tbls. of butter for with the scrambled egg, or have fried egg and bacon [in coconut oil, all I ever use] my bg drops like a stone to 4/5 by 1500 hrs.

It seems as though the butter fat signals straightaway to the brain I have eaten I dont need food and stays that way. I also dont feel hungry until 16/1700 hrs.
That may be horrendously unhealthy for low fat living but it certainly drops the bg big time.
Anyone else find that?

I find the same with eating a protein fat brekkie. My bg drops, immediately after eating to levels I like.

The only thing in your post i disagree with is the implication that eating fat is unhealthy (second to last sentence).

In the 2 years since i went even lower carb and higher fat, i have lost weight, feel better, have more energy and stamina, my hba1c has dropped, my cholesterol ratios have improved to 'optimal', my joint inflammation has virtually disappeared, and i feel 15 years younger.

If i switched to vegan (as suggested in the video), i would risk losing many of those benefits. I have no axe to grind against veganism, but that is simply a risk i am not willing to take...

 

[Fuggs]

I find the same with eating a protein fat brekkie. My bg drops, immediately after eating to levels I like.

The only thing in your post i disagree with is the implication that eating fat is unhealthy (second to last sentence).

In the 2 years since i went even lower carb and higher fat, i have lost weight, feel better, have more energy and stamina, my hba1c has dropped, my cholesterol ratios have improved to 'optimal', my joint inflammation has virtually disappeared, and i feel 15 years younger.

If i switched to vegan (as suggested in the video), i would risk losing many of those benefits. I have no axe to grind against veganism, but that is simply a risk i am not willing to take...

It's not me saying fats are unhealthy...see top topic. I eat butter and avocado by the spoonful....

 

[hankjam]

It's not me suggesting reducing fats, see the first post. In my mind it seems fat in the diet increases satiety that's why low carb good fat intake seems to work for me. Icant however seem to get my carbs much below 80 a day. I love green sprouts and these are high in carbs. Maybe have to compensate with higher carbs by more exercise.....

What's your definition of high and your source for sprouts being high carb... google suggests 9% total and 4% df.... I eat them quite a lot and was taken back to read your post...

 

[SunnyExpat]

Having tested some theories over the last few weeks my particular situation is:

Because of the dawn phenomena, my bg is usually 7/8 at 8am even if I go to bed at 4.5.

If I have a meal replacement shake, veggies etc. for breakfast and go for 45min walk my bg drops slowly to 6 ish until about 1500.
If I have 2 scrambled eggs same time, it drops about the same. But if I add a couple of tbls. of butter for with the scrambled egg, or have fried egg and bacon [in coconut oil, all I ever use] my bg drops like a stone to 4/5 by 1500 hrs.

It seems as though the butter fat signals straightaway to the brain I have eaten I dont need food and stays that way. I also dont feel hungry until 16/1700 hrs.
That may be horrendously unhealthy for low fat living but it certainly drops the bg big time.
Anyone else find that?

If that works for you, why are you asking if vegan is better?

Do you want to lose weight, or are you not losing it on lchf?
Or is there some other reason to try it?

 

[Fuggs]

If that works for you, why are you asking if vegan is better?

Do you want to lose weight, or are you not losing it on lchf?
Or is there some other reason to try it?

Lost a bit of weight but can't seem to get the balance of carbs/fat right.

 

[SunnyExpat]

I can only lose weight by eating less.
The balance doesn't really come into it for me, in fact I lose more weight on low fat, low calorie, I increase the fat to maintain my weight.

 

[runner2009]

Yep, this is exactly what happens with me as well. As you have discovered, low carb high fat seems to be the most healthy way of eating for many of us T2 diabetics.

I eat meat and natural healthy fats (both saturated and unsaturated), but I also eat lots of low carb vegetables. Most modern research is showing that this way of eating is not at all unhealthy.


I totally agree with this Diabell. With we T2s having very poor glucose metabolism, and with the glucose from those readily absorbed carbs basically just floating around in our bloodstream without being used, it's pretty much a "no brainer' that much of it is going to get converted to fat no matter how hard we try (at least if your T2 insulin resistance is bad enough).

Since being diagnosed with T1.5 over 2-years ago I've tried numerous techniques to control both weight and BG.

Looking at both end points as equally important. The most successful was when I was on a consistent carbohydrate / low fat diet with short high intensity workouts.

The diet was basically no more than 90carbs a day, fats from vegetables with no added oils - very limited dairy, eggs but no meats and no more than 4oz of fish at any meal.

Snacks were popcorn, veggies and Edamame hummus and very controlled nut intake.

My BMI was 26.5 and A1C was 4.8 I used 3 to 6 units 75/25 a day.

I hurt my back, stopped working out and switched to a LCHF - very very low carbs diet -, meats added oils, carbs from veggies only, lots of cheese etc.

No more snacking on popcorn but cheeses, peanut butter and nuts.

Basically, my weight increased in 9-months to BMI 31.5 and A1C to 5.3 but insulin sky rocked to 9 to 18 units of 75/25 ( on a super low carbs.

4-weeks ago I started on the NC diet and things are turning around, weight loss, good fasting Blood sugars 4.2 to 4.8

I do the shakes and tons of veggies either in soups or stir fried with no oils

Here is my take away:

Dr. Bernstein who promotes the LCHD, eats a low calorie diet that is under 1,400 calories a day with strict portion control. He also does High Intensity workouts every day.

For me portion control and the love of fatty salty foods and fruits has always been an issue.

If I am eating or snacking on veggies, popcorn and a cup turns into a ton, I'm not going to injest that many calories - " I just over ate an extra head of cabbage oh no I've eaten 50 calories ".

If I have to increase my insulin to cover, there is not much nutrients that are going to be forced into my fat cells.

On the other hand if a few nuts turn into a couple handfuls or 4oz of pork belly turn into 12oz or a piece of cheese turns into a hunk, I've just eaten a **** load of calories.

Myself, I'm going to by nature overeat and I can't count on my exercising to help control my weight - as my bad back proved that fact.

A diet of low density carbs and low density calories is best for my body type ( genes ) and personality.

One last thing, for me adding as much muscle as one can is super helpful in controlling BG even dawn phenomena. I've even timed my food and insulin injections around weight lifting.

One does not need to go to a gym nor have tons of weights - a kettle ball and a few sets of dumbells are enough and the fortitude to push yourself to muscle failure and then again ( no matter how low the weights - standing wall push ups work too just push to failure ) to open the path ways to accept the nutrients for muscle growth.

 

[Administrator]

I was vegetarian for a few years. Always cooked my own stuff. Then I was diagnosed with diabetes, I found it hard to eat low carb. I was starving so began eating meat again. I was never one for eating fake food yuk. And soy is not healthy. I don't like quorn either.
I actually bought his book. Mind you I'm great at buying books but not following through.
By the way if you already have diabetes you can manage it but not reverse it.

Were you not a fan of cheese or lentils? It certainly seems trickier with a vege-LC adaptation.

 

[dawnmc]

I was a fan of lentils, and other legumes, but found they raised my BS unfortunately.