Reversing Type 2 diabetes

[pleinster]

I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make here?

You specifically singled out "Type 2 diabetes in an otherwise healthy person controlling their blood sugar well through effective dieting and a healthy lifestyle (who is not overweight...which I would remind people is NOT the cause of every diabetics condition)." as Not being connected to increased rates of cancer through any research.

Isn't that the whole point ? the vast majority of those who join here will not qualify - because if they were an otherwise healthy person who is not obese and who is in control of their blood sugars - then why would they join in the first place?

It seems that there are many, many people who have been diabetic for decades without a trace of cancer or heart disease, and who are robustly healthy apart from the need to be careful as regards their food choices and may need insulin injections because of diabetes either as T1 or T2 diabetics. Isn't that the message this site gives ? i.e. contrary to what you many have been told on diagnosis, there is hope.

Isn't the message to everyone who joins that actually whatever point you are starting it, whatever your level of control or your degree of obesity , when you start contributing to your own health by embracing a different lifestyle including helping to manage your own blood sugars ( for which we can contribute a lot of experiences ) and exercising then the chances are you are contributing to improving your own health and longevity for all manner of reasons of which diabetes is just one, whether that is in addition to your medication , or instead of your medication depending on your personal circumstances.

At the same time you have joined a site where people are prepared to look at research done and pronouncement made by various "authorities" on the subject and debate whether whatever is being said might have merit just like this thread.

Honestly, I give up. Evidently no-one quite understands that I am simply saying surveys (often driven by agendas we do not have access to) that imply diabetics are going to get cancer is like saying rabbits are going to get shot in the head. There are other factors. I actually think we are largely in agreement whether you see that or not. If you do not agree with me...are you saying that I don't have aright to express my view on a "pronouncement" made by one of these "authorities"? Perhaps I have worded this incorrectly as you are not the only person to find what I have said derogatory to diabetics trying to find away when actually I am 100% behind them. You ask "Isn't that the whole point ?" - YES IT IS! I am honestly starting to think I should just keep out of it and let people say whatever they want.

 

[pleinster]

The cause of higher rates of cancer in diabetics? Who says? In fact WHO data does not support this statement, so can we please stop scaremongering until there is definitive evidence. Diabetics run a similar risk to any other in the general population.

We do have medications that may be linked to causing cancer, as well as CVD, AKI, and all manner of associated health issues, but not the common cold (link so far not established) I have greater risk to life when I walk round the corner to go to the shop. Food poisoning, air pollution, my fellow humans, blue ice from the heavens, a lightning bolt from the blue.

It makes sense to reduce risk where we can but in the long run the end result will greet us one day. To label D as being a major carcinogen where there is no evidence is unhelpful. We have enough morbidity risks to deal with as it is.

So far I have 6 close members of my family who have had the C diagnosis before the age of 60. but not one of them was or has since become Diabetic.

I completely agree. I am so glad you have said this. Evidently, if I try something vaguely similar in what appear in retrospect to have been the wrong words I get attacked for it! I cannot tell you how hacked off I am right now. I hope if I just stop posting altogether...people like yourself keep challenging the nonsense.

 

[Oldvatr]

Zand, you might find this interesting.....

I know my body is VERY acidic - and is now beginning to shed the acidity. I get about the lymph being clogged and how fruits, which are astringent, could help to cleanse it.

Interestingly, although I plan to go all fruit for a while (not permanently, just for detox purposes), I am still eating some veg and nuts (and indulged in some chocolate and peanuts this evening...), whilst my evening meal of sweet potato and veg, chia pudding with nuts and the peanuts and chocolate whopped my BG right up even with insulin (and it is very reluctant to come back down), my blood sugar after eating fruit during the day (cherries, banana, apple and pomegranate) ended up elevated no higher than my FBG this morning - with no insulin at all.....

The only time I need no insulin is when I am water-fasting. Then, over a period of days my BG will lower to normal. I think from tomorrow I will go out all fruit and see what happens. I am probably best not checking my BG levels during the day as it may panic me initially, but as today's experience showed me, any elevation there may have been was levelled back out eventually. To see that it had lowered without insulin was quite amazing.

There is bound to be some fluctuation as my body cleans itself out. Detox symptoms too, like the loose bowels I am currently experiencing. I think you and I are probably in a similar place, having tried many different ways to deal with this over the years. I have just felt as though, despite all my efforts, my body has been getting more and more toxic and acidic - which is almost certainly driving the insulin resistance to a great degree. As Mark James Gordon mentions in the video, fat is an acid buffer and I have long believed that, too.

LCHF just made my acidic system worse. It may work for some, but it didn't work for me - and it's taken me 9 years to realise it.......

OMG. Now you are suggesting to cure an acid diet by consuming nothing but fruit, which is highly acidic. Where do you get these ideas from?

High fructose intake is one thing that is supposed to create IR in T2D, and although the science is not complete on this, it is recognized that our bodies are not very good at metabolising fructose, so it goes directly to the liver where it becomes stored as adipose fat. We do not burn fructose, it is only useful to us as lipid fat. and needs converting before we can burn it. This is what i understand Metabolic Syndrome to be.

There are times when I think your science is extremely suspect.

@zand please do some more research on this before you do this.

Edit to add: when we eat food it goes to the stomach where is gets bathed in strong HCL which is an acid. So an acid diet actually pales into insignificance. Then what does our body do with the glucose we metabolise? It converts it into what is basically acetic acid. This is the Citric Cycle. So whats all this c**p about acidity being a problem, As your post started - my body is very acidic. Yup it sure is and its healthy.

 

[zand]

I completely agree. I am so glad you have said this. Evidently, if I try something vaguely similar in what appear in retrospect to have been the wrong words I get attacked for it! I cannot tell you how hacked off I am right now. I hope if I just stop posting altogether...people like yourself keep challenging the nonsense.

Don't stop posting. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I obviously need more fats to keep my brain working properly. Thanks for explaining.

 

[zand]

OMG. Now you are suggesting to cure an acid diet by consuming nothing but fruit, which is highly acidic. Where do you get these ideas from?

High fructose intake is one thing that is supposed to create IR in T2D, and although the science is not complete on this, it is recognized that our bodies are not very good at metabolising fructose, so it goes directly to the liver where it becomes stored as adipose fat. We do not burn fructose, it is only useful to us as lipid fat. and needs converting before we can burn it. This is what i understand Metabolic Syndrome to be.

There are times when I think your science is extremely suspect. @zand please do some more research on this before you do this.

Edit to add: when we eat food it goes to the stomach where is gets bathed in strong HCL which is an acid. So an acid diet actually pales into insignificance. Then what does our body do with the glucose we metabolise? It converts it into what is basically acetic acid. This is the Citric Cycle. So whats all this c**p about acidity being a problem, As your post started - my body is very acidic. Yup it sure is and its healthy.

I have read a lot about acidity and it's not acidic foods that cause acidity in the body, it's quite the opposite, I seem to remember friends cutting out cheese, but it's very many years since I looked at the acid diet, long before I was diabetic. I won't say never, but not yet (which was what I said back then). I remember reading a book about diabetes (when I knew I was heading that way but not yet diagnosed) and it said that citrus fruits were important to reduce existing IR. I dismissed this as rubbish at the time but it would seem to fit with the acid diet too. Anyhow this stuff isn't for me today. Thanks @AliB for reminding me of it though.

@Oldvatr Thanks for your concern. I am modifying my plans now. I mistakenly thought that weight loss was the most important thing for me. After a few days of low fat eating I realise it's not. Mental health is my first priority. It's easy to forget about that when you are feeling well. A couple of weeks ago I halved my dose of anti-depressants and I am finding it too hard to go HCLF right now. I am feeling very low and I need more fats and my 99% choc evenings to balance my serotonin levels and lift my mood. So I am changing back to LCHF, but with more plant based foods and as little animal fats as I can cope with. I still intend to carry out my experiment, but will delay it for a while and use this modified version of LCHF as a stepping stone along the way.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

And for those of us who have tried everything they can think of and still have weight issues? Should they just give up?

NO. Probably the most important thing is that having identified problem areas (mine use to be beer).

And for those of us who have tried everything they can think of and still have weight issues? Keep doing what they have been doing?

Keep the good bits and chuck out the bad.

And for those of us who have tried everything they can think of and still have weight issues? Or try something new?

Keep trying, I'm still looking. Weight is so much more than calories in and calories out. My weight has gone up and down while eating pretty much the same and exercising about the same. What affects weight? Emotional stuff is just one thing. Drugs is another.

One of the things having a weight issue made me do was have a good honest look at my eating habits. So out went anything that could be said as being over indulgent (isn't it strange how eating a single XXXXXXXX makes people think you eat them all the time).

Currently checking my intestinal flora to see if there's an answer there. Six weeks of very low calorie (< 1000), no dairy, no meat, almost Newcastle) worked but too extreme for longer term.

 

[zand]

Currently checking my intestinal flora to see if there's an answer there.

So where do you start with this? I know that I gained weight much more quickly after I had 5 courses of antibiotics close together, but apart from having probiotics I'm not sure what to do about it now.

 

[CherryAA]

Honestly, I give up. Evidently no-one quite understands that I am simply saying surveys (often driven by agendas we do not have access to) that imply diabetics are going to get cancer is like saying rabbits are going to get shot in the head. There are other factors. I actually think we are largely in agreement whether you see that or not. If you do not agree with me...are you saying that I don't have aright to express my view on a "pronouncement" made by one of these "authorities"? Perhaps I have worded this incorrectly as you are not the only person to find what I have said derogatory to diabetics trying to find away when actually I am 100% behind them. You ask "Isn't that the whole point ?" - YES IT IS! I am honestly starting to think I should just keep out of it and let people say whatever they want.

I think we are in violent agreement, everyone can and should be suspicious of anything they are being old by an" authority" or not, though clearly evidence based authorities count for more.

My only concern with your post was that the way I read it you had effectively singled out those that had actually achieved full success on the journey including reaching target weight goals.

What is very clear is that with an initial diagnosis of diabetes , there are things that individuals can do through diet, all well explained by Daisy that will put them in a much healthier position relatively quickly, including reduced blood sugars, improved lipids and weight loss which moves them to a much better position than they began including their vulnerability to all manner of troubles which may or may not include some cancers

Some people will be lucky that this switch is enough to get them back to normal weight and normal insulin resistance as well. For many of us, including me, it won't and we will still find ourselves searching for new inspiration to get to that final stage. As such if anyone does try out something different and is prepared to share their experiences of it, I for one will be very grateful of any reports of the results - good or bad.

In the end all of this is down to what works for each individual. That will be combination of whatever the underlying science is- which may or may not yet have been discovered and the personal traits of each person.

Sometimes it can be hard to convey exactly what we mean and so it seems here. peace!

 

[Indy51]

The acid/alkali theory has been pretty much debunked by mainstream medicine - and even less mainstream practitioners like Chris Kresser think it's a myth: https://chriskresser.com/dispelling-the-acid-alkaline-myth/

 

[Oldvatr]

I have read a lot about acidity and it's not acidic foods that cause acidity in the body, it's quite the opposite, I seem to remember friends cutting out cheese, but it's very many years since I looked at the acid diet, long before I was diabetic. I won't say never, but not yet (which was what I said back then). I remember reading a book about diabetes (when I knew I was heading that way but not yet diagnosed) and it said that citrus fruits were important to reduce existing IR. I dismissed this as rubbish at the time but it would seem to fit with the acid diet too. Anyhow this stuff isn't for me today. Thanks @AliB for reminding me of it though.

@Oldvatr Thanks for your concern. I am modifying my plans now. I mistakenly thought that weight loss was the most important thing for me. After a few days of low fat eating I realise it's not. Mental health is my first priority. It's easy to forget about that when you are feeling well. A couple of weeks ago I halved my dose of anti-depressants and I am finding it too hard to go HCLF right now. I am feeling very low and I need more fats and my 99% choc evenings to balance my serotonin levels and lift my mood. So I am changing back to LCHF, but with more plant based foods and as little animal fats as I can cope with. I still intend to carry out my experiment, but will delay it for a while and use this modified version of LCHF as a stepping stone along the way.

I am pleased to read this posting here. I think your new approach is probably a better way to go, and safer too. I have no answer to the weight problems that many suffer from, but in my case LCHF reduced my weight down to what seems to be my target weight of 10.5 stones, and it is hardly varying at all now. I find that at this weight I can sit in the bath ok without feeling that my padding is lacking on my glutineous maximus. I can now see my toes, and the other important little bits, which is something I could not do before LCHF. I can even touch my toes!!!!!!! So my journey has worked well for me, and I do not want to lose any more weight.
Looking at the science behind LCHF diet, it seems fat intake is a key. increase the fat to put weight on, decrease to lose it. I think this works best with the body in keto mode, but nowadays I run my carb level just above, so I tend to dip low rather than sit in hypoland. My daily average is currently 7.2 mmol/l, which is 1 mmol/l higher than before I halved my medication, so not bad.

I know that the adipose tissue around the midriff is a beggar to shift, and I can see a mechanism in LC diets in general especally a keto diet. I cold not see this happening in the WFPB diet so that is why I query their science, So far I am still waiting a reply. I believe that the current thinking on adipose fat / mitochondrial fat as being the key to IR, but this tenet may be incorrect. All I know is that I am now far more carb tolerant than I used to be, but that may just be from shifting weight in general rather than the adipose weight specifically.

One thing to bear in mind is that whereas the glucogen stores in the muscles will wax and wane as glucose is shifted about, the adipose fat will NEVER disappear once created from stem cells. So the spare tyre will hang around long after the fat has gone. So weight loss can happen, but getting a svelte figure back requires liposuction.

Please continue to share your experiences here. I have no problem with increasing plant foods in the diet since this is exactly what I have done, but I still apply LC principles in my selection. I myself still use dairy and animal products, but am sparing with the double cream fat bombs, but then I am comfortablr with being an omnivore. It also means that my family can share my diet without feeling too deprived. I find I can also be more relaxed about my selections as I have greater choice.

 

[Resurgam]

As I concentrate on eating low carb foods I do actually eat rather a lot of vegetables and fruits - as it is still early days - less than a year from diagnosis I am still lowering my Hba1c so I could eat even more if I wanted to, but I don't like to feel stuffed which is what could happen.
I think so much of the mythology about Atkins and other low carb diets is down to people scoffing at the amount of carbs when represented by a cake, bread or high sugar/starch fruits, and not when represented in 'allowable' foods as huge heaps of salad stuff and under 11 percent carb foods.

 

[JohnEGreen]

I am beginning to realise just how lucky I have been I just cut down on carbs ate fats while keeping my calories down to about 600 per day did that for twelve months ignoring all other considerations and the weight dropped off and despite all the dire misgivings of others I seem to have got away with it.

Some times you just have to follow your own path even when every one is telling you your wrong.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

So where do you start with this? I know that I gained weight much more quickly after I had 5 courses of antibiotics close together, but apart from having probiotics I'm not sure what to do about it now.

It's a good question. I've known for years that it wasn't my eating habits that led to me being overweight and in certain periods of time I've known it was prescription drugs. At home it's always been a joke that I had a dreadful diet as a bachelor and my wife was going to "sort me out" with WW Meals. I gained 3 stone in the first three months of living together, maybe the extra weight had something to do with becoming diabetic, who knows? I wasn't eating elsewhere so a plan that went wrong. I was so anxious at that time that I went to the GP and then the hospital dietician who could only suggest that the salt in WW meals was the cause. ?????????????? Who Knows?

My latest set of tests are in line with some tests that I've had in the past, although not so sophisticated and organised by my nutritional therapist. We have been looking into the microbiome but until seeing a program called "Doctor in the house" several weeks ago, we haven't gone too far with that line of research. Since that particular program my NT has had several requests to look into gut bacteria from several people struggling to loose weight despite controlling calories and exercising.

I've only sent the stuff off today, time will tell.

Like you I've had several bouts of antibiotics (2 replacement knees and a bout of peritonitis) and I've tried to encourage good bacteria with the probiotics, again, wh knows unless you keep having tests and you can't do that too often.

I shall report any outcome.

 

[Mbaker]

I think it is likely that a lower carb whole food plant based diet could reverse Type 2 for some, just as a low calorie, vegetarian, vegan and LCHF diets can also (along with Intermittent Fasting); my rationale is that I do not believe advocates of these methods are lying and there is enough proof in the data provided; so for example 2 protocols I have not used being the Vegan (raw)

and low calorie

, clearly show reversal of diabetes in numeric terms. Had LCHF and exercise not worked for me I would happily have tried the aforementioned.

I think we can agree that any diet that gets rid of processed food is a significant step in the right direction.

I have tried to understand why some protocols work for a majority but maybe not circa 20% who try them, and think this is down to various variables such as visceral and subcutaneous fat, metabolic rate, age, insulin resistance, muscle mass, genetics, mental state (stress, motivation), food tastes, economics, food education / preparation abilities, portion size, nutrient deficiencies and many more. A big contributor of whether a wfpb diet (or any other protocol) could reverse Type 2 I think is gut bacteria, take a look at these if you have time (around an hour):

 

[badcat]

I remember reading a book about diabetes (when I knew I was heading that way but not yet diagnosed) and it said that citrus fruits were important to reduce existing IR. I dismissed this as rubbish at the time but it would seem to fit with the acid diet too.

Some time after I was diagnosd, someone who was very into alkalising gave me a book called something like "the ph miracle diet for diabetes" - I instinctively mistrust anything looking at medical problems with the word "miracle" in the title so I dipped into it it but never implimented it - one thing I remember is that under the theory, the sharpest fruits taste wise (lemons, limes, grapefruit ) were the most alkalising, and the sweetest ones the most acidifying

 

[Oldvatr]

Some time after I was diagnosd, someone who was very into alkalising gave me a book called something like "the ph miracle diet for diabetes" - I instinctively mistrust anything looking at medical problems with the word "miracle" in the title so I dipped into it it but never implimented it - one thing I remember is that under the theory, the sharpest fruits taste wise (lemons, limes, grapefruit ) were the most alkalising, and the sweetest ones the most acidifying

There is an FDA advisory that grapefruit should be avoided if you are using statins - there can be a serious reaction between them.

https://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm292276.htm

 

[zand]

I think it is likely that a lower carb whole food plant based diet could reverse Type 2 for some, just as a low calorie, vegetarian, vegan and LCHF diets can also (along with Intermittent Fasting); my rationale is that I do not believe advocates of these methods are lying and there is enough proof in the data provided; so for example 2 protocols I have not used being the Vegan (raw)

and low calorie

, clearly show reversal of diabetes in numeric terms. Had LCHF and exercise not worked for me I would happily have tried the aforementioned.

I think we can agree that any diet that gets rid of processed food is a significant step in the right direction.

I have tried to understand why some protocols work for a majority but maybe not circa 20% who try them, and think this is down to various variables such as visceral and subcutaneous fat, metabolic rate, age, insulin resistance, muscle mass, genetics, mental state (stress, motivation), food tastes, economics, food education / preparation abilities, portion size, nutrient deficiencies and many more. A big contributor of whether a wfpb diet (or any other protocol) could reverse Type 2 I think is gut bacteria, take a look at these if you have time (around an hour):

Really need to get these speakers fixed so I can watch the videos! Thanks for putting them up here.

 

[Oldvatr]

Just came across a posting on another forum by a proponent of WFPB. This was posted at the end of a very good thread discussing the science of metabolism. I quote it complete with typo's. It was not followed by any attempt to provide any science backing, which is what I am still looking for.
<<<<<
It makes me cry guys, stop that low carb, high animal fat ******** for the sake of the millions' health.

Most people using keto diet dont want to find out more about it.

For example ketogenic diet causes insulin resistance and high gasting sugar blood level yet people claim it lowers blood glucose levels.

It also destroys your gut micrflorsa,leads to glutathione depletion etc

There arent ANY primal people who thrive on keto diet (no Inui arent in ketosis) whereas there are plenty of being healthy and strong on high carbs diet.

Most keto believers dont even get basic stuff like that you dont need insulin responae to be fat etc.

I have many of science links to back up my claims but fighting with cultists is just waste of time,its lije discussing **** in /earthisflat>>>>>>>>

I agree with the closing remark, but apologise for the use of language (not my words)

 

[zand]

Looks like I was right about needing more fat for the brain to work properly then

After 6 years of mostly LCHF I am craving more fruit and veg. I love all fruits and veggies and am struggling with this now. I do eat meat but don't like it a lot. I like lean beef and good quality chicken and bacon but that's it. My naturopath advised me not to eat cow's dairy so I have changed to goat's milk, cheese and butter. I try to match my protein and carbs and since my recommended carb intake for my lean bodyweight is 49g then that's the amount of carbs I aim for too. It used to be easy but now it's not.

 

[CherryAA]

@zand - how much weight have you lost so far during your 6 years of LCHF ? do you find you are putting weight back on easily as well ?

I'm kinda puzzling about all this. I hit a plateau about 5 months ago now after losing 28 kg and whilst I can see what is going wrong on my " bad days" when I give into temptation, . My good days don't seem to make much difference in terms of losing weight so at present my struggle is one to stick at the current weight rather than to get to a new level.

I did lose 31kg once and that got me to 75kg close to my current target which is is now 72kg . of course I put it all back over the years plus some as it seems everyone is prone to do. So now I would still like to be 18kg lighter which sounds similar to you?

This is the very first time my diet has been an LCHF one - it clearly works a lot better for blood sugars than my HCLF one ever did , and I now feel very healthy for the first time in years, so I'm comfortable with that. However I would like to be slimmer and I'm guessing that these last 18kg are probably important in terms of the long term diabetes diagnosis, even if at the moment my blood sugars seem to be running fine without medication.

Both diets seem to have followed a very similar trajectory for the first 25kg which I achieved in about 8-9 months. Now though it seems to be much harder to actually lose weight to make progress compared with the same stage of the HCLF one .

I found that my weight loss towards the end of that diet was pretty similar to that during the middle of it - if I stuck to the same rules. It does not feel as if that is quite the case now - i.e. something is stopping the actual progress despite the same rules not just my " willpower" .

I calorie count and record both diets and try to stick to 1200 calories per day anyway, which I guess probably means 1500 per day on average when one adjusts for the occasional slip and the fact that everything you don't weigh ( which isn't much but which is inevitable when I'm out) is probably bigger than I think it is .I would be very interested to hear how this compares with your experience.