So what's the truth about Cholesterol

[borofergie]

I don't agree. The effort expended in killing small animals such as rabbits is large in comparison to the amount of meat you'd get.

But a lot safer and conducive to living a long life.

Starving to death is not conducive to a long life. Google "rabbit poisoning"

A single Bison would feed the tribe for weeks, if not months.

They must have had one hell of a fridge to fit a Bison in, or do you think they smoked it to preserve it for 'months'?

Google "Pemmican."

 

[xyzzy]

Food Preservation as Practiced By the Plains Indians

http://suite101.com/article/pemmica...d-by-the-plains-indians-a231705#ixzz1yXH7FSNc

Pemmican: A Nutritious Buffalo Meat Product
There are different definitions of pemmican but the main concept is that pemmican was a powder made of dried, mainly buffalo meat, which was mixed with berries and sealed in hot fat. Pemmican was nutritious and rich in protein and formed a part of the staple diet of the Plains tribes.

To make the pemmican, the buffalo meat was first cut into long strips which were then hung in the open air to dry. The strips had to be thoroughly dried. The dried meat was then pounded. Some sources include a stage of roasting the dried meat before pounding it. A maul, or hammer with a stone head and a wooden handle was used to pound the meat in a leather bowl of sorts until it was frayed and fluffy.

Once the meat had been pounded, it was mixed and kneaded with wild fruit, mostly wild cherries, and with animal fat. The mass was then formed into compact little tablets or cakes. This way, the meat could be preserved for long periods of time and could be eaten in times when fresh meat could not be had, for example during the long, cold winters or when the tribe was on the war path.

 

[borofergie]

Thanks BlindDog.

That also shows that they ate saturated fat, because unlike vegetable fats, it doesn't go rancid, and is therefore suitable for preservation.

Which is another great reason why you shouldn't eat vegetable oil, especially from that oxidised bottle of Olive Oil that is in your cupboard.

 

[xyzzy]

Thanks BlindDog.

That also shows that they ate saturated fat, because unlike vegetable fats, it doesn't go rancid, and is therefore suitable for preservation.

Which is another great reason why you shouldn't eat vegetable oil, especially from that oxidised bottle of Olive Oil that is in your cupboard.

Olive Oil?

No way!

Changed to a small knob of lard last week for my bacon, egg and mushrooms on your say so.

Swapped back to unhealthy salted real butter from healthy sunflower oil marg around a two months ago too.

Real butter I'd forgotten how much nicer it tasted.

Get the lipid results next week so fingers crossed.

 

[jopar]

Stephen

Can we stick to facts! As you well know that I've not said that prehistoric man didn't eat meat nor man didn't evolve to eat meat, I can only assume that you starting to make these claims because you'll slowly losing the debate!

Which is, how much of the prehistoric man was based on High Fat/Protein! which stemmed from information that your diet was 80% fat based, which you considered to be near prehistoric man!

Now what does a 20,000 year old cave drawing which was painted after the prehistoric man period, showing a Bison type animal and a dying caveman tell me!

That hunting animals was fraught with dangers, that cost human life... And it seems that the Bison was still on the go, so the spear in it's back may have wounded, but may not have mortally wounded the animal!

The second picture shows hunters standing in front of running deer, which in my opinion not a wise place to be standing if you want to survive to have tea! Again it shows that the deer of the time where a lot bigger than humans...

But again, you can make assumptions to whether the animals are fat or whether they would be successful enough in their hunting endeavours to supply a constant supply of meat or that this meat supply made a greater portion of their diet!

You also claim,

I don't agree. The effort expended in killing small animals such as rabbits is large in comparison to the amount of meat you'd get. A single Bison would feed the tribe for weeks, if not months.

I think that again, you getting your time periods all mixed up again! As did prehistoric man, not only have the ability to store food, but do so in a manner that prevent other scavengers from swiping it! Don't forget prehistoric and paleo man were nomadic following the food source! They weren't cultivating or starting to farm livestock! This didn't happen really until caveman that the human race started to settle and make the first steps into cultivating, then domesticating animals!

And how great could their diet have been, after all the suggested life span for the prehistoric man etc was 30-40 years! Life expectancy never particularly improved until the 19th century!

 

[Paul1976]

So herbivores are mainly lean mammals according to some people? Try telling the Hippo or Giant panda that!

 

[jopar]

Still think you and your mates can kill one with nothing more than a sharp stick or stone tool! And on foot just like a prehistoric/stone age man!

er... Yes. Isn't that exactly what modern hunter gatherer tribes do around the world today? I've even seen them do it on TV or was it all staged like the moon landings?

Do modern man, do as Borofergie was suggesting kill a Bison?

Notice the actual size of the animals that are hunted by tribes such as pygmies, they are quite a bit smaller than a Bison! And they have various methods that were available to prehistoric man! Such as blow pipes, the ability to entrap animals... But their meat intake was purely based on how successful their hunting was! And they relied a lot on the gathering aspect to ensure that they were fed! Plus don't forget their abilities of being able to store and preserve meat they've caught is something that has been created over millions of years, and techniques used were unlikely to have been around in prehistoric man's time!

But heck, seeing your other posts wonder what else you'll going to come up with to distract or should I say derail the thread!

Because where does lard and olive oil come into a debate on what sort of diet and hunting abilities that prehistoric man had!

 

[xyzzy]

A bunch of highly qualified Swede's that agree with you Stephen...

Not only do they all agree with you and the Cochrane stuff about Cholesterol ....

http://swenglishlchf.wordpress.com/...l-is-not-dangerous-for-women-and-healthy-men/

but Jørgen Vesti Nielsen (one of the authors) is also the guy who ran that successful recent Swedish T1 low carb study along with earlier ones for T2's showing similar great results ....

Sounds like a man we should pay some attention to ....

More on Bison hunting ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting

What is not disputed is that before the introduction of horses, bison were herded into large chutes made of rocks and willow branches and then stampeded over cliffs. These Buffalo jumps are found in several places in the U.S. and Canada, such as Head-Smashed-In Buffalo Jump. Large groups of people would herd the bison for several miles, forcing them into a stampede that would ultimately drive many animals over a cliff. The large quantities of meat obtained in this way provided the hunters with surplus, which was used in trade. A similar method of hunting was to drive the bison into natural corrals, such as the Ruby site.

....

 

[xyzzy]

Because where does lard and olive oil come into a debate on what sort of diet and hunting abilities that prehistoric man had!

:? er.... Because the OP says the thread is .... "So what's the truth about Cholesterol".... What can be more on topic than stating .... I have swapped from two apparent lower cholesterol sources to two higher types and am waiting to see the result next week.

....

 

[Sid Bonkers]

So herbivores are mainly lean mammals according to some people? Try telling the Hippo or Giant panda that!

Try killing a hippo and then skinning it with a flint axe!! :lol:

 

[borofergie]

Can we stick to facts! As you well know that I've not said that prehistoric man didn't eat meat nor man didn't evolve to eat meat, I can only assume that you starting to make these claims because you'll slowly losing the debate!

Losing the debate against someone who doesn't even know what Paleolithic means?

Which is, how much of the prehistoric man was based on High Fat/Protein! which stemmed from information that your diet was 80% fat based, which you considered to be near prehistoric man!

Now what does a 20,000 year old cave drawing which was painted after the prehistoric man period, showing a Bison type animal and a dying caveman tell me!

Because 20,000 years ago is in the Upper Paleolithic? About 70,000 years after the invention of the spear, and at least 10,000 years before the invention of agriculture (the Neolithic).

What's the point in arguing if you aren't prepared to do even a tiny bit of research?

That hunting animals was fraught with dangers, that cost human life... And it seems that the Bison was still on the go, so the spear in it's back may have wounded, but may not have mortally wounded the animal!

The second picture shows hunters standing in front of running deer, which in my opinion not a wise place to be standing if you want to survive to have tea! Again it shows that the deer of the time where a lot bigger than humans...

:shock:

So now you're criticising the cave art because you don't think that it's realistic. Do you think that they were imagining what spears and bows and arrows look like?

The first tools were developed 2.5 million years ago
Fire was discovered 2 million years ago
Spears 200,000 years ago
Harpoons 90,000 years ago
Nets 30,000 years ago
Bows and arrows 30,000 years ago

Why do you think that they invented all of that kit? So they could eat grass seeds or so that they could hunt animals?

But again, you can make assumptions to whether the animals are fat or whether they would be successful enough in their hunting endeavours to supply a constant supply of meat or that this meat supply made a greater portion of k

Why would you hunt a skinny animal? Especially if you had all the kit I described above?

I don't agree. The effort expended in killing small animals such as rabbits is large in comparison to the amount of meat you'd get. A single Bison would feed the tribe for weeks, if not months.

I think that again, you getting your time periods all mixed up again! As did prehistoric man, not only have the ability to store food, but do so in a manner that prevent other scavengers from swiping it! Don't forget prehistoric and paleo man were nomadic following the food source! They weren't cultivating or starting to farm livestock! This didn't happen really until caveman that the human race started to settle and make the first steps into cultivating, then domesticating animals!

When you start using words like "caveman" and "prehistoric" you're showing your ignorance. There are plenty of ways of storing, preserving and transporting meat that don't include refrigerators.

And how great could their diet have been, after all the suggested life span for the prehistoric man etc was 30-40 years! Life expectancy never particularly improved until the 19th century!

No. The average height of men at the end of the ice age was 5' 9. By 3000bc, with the advent of agriculture it had decreased to 5' 3.

Jared Diamond on the transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture in the Ohio valley:
"Compared to the hunter gatherers that preceded them, the farmers had a nearly 50% increase in enamel defects, indicative of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron deficiency anemia, a threefold increase in bone lesions, reflecting infectious diseases in general and and increase in degenerative conditions of the spine, resulting from hard labor."

"Life expectancy at birth was around 26 in the pre-agricultural community, but In the post agricultural community it had decreases to 19 years, so the episodes of nutritional stress and infectious disease we're seriously affecting their ability to survive"

 

[Sid Bonkers]

More on Bison hunting ....

bison were herded into large chutes made of rocks and willow branches and then stampeded over cliffs.

And how exactly would that have been accomplished in East Anglia, even in Kent where I live I'd have to herd them all the way to Dover to find a cliff and that wouldnt have been much help is it drops straight into the sea, thats if the cliffs were even there in palaeolithic times :lol:

So joking aside how exactly would a nomadic people have found handy cliffs to stampede extremely dangerous wild bison over?

 

[xyzzy]

Well looking at the results of the Swedish T1 study just released, which was carb intake of >75g's, it showed that levels had raised at 6 months, and stayed raised at the 4 year marker! And if I remember rightly that in the group that failed the raise at 4 years was actually less than those who maintained the VLC diet!

Actually an earlier T1 70 - 90g study done by the same group concluded Cholesterol levels improved.

Furthermore the triglyceride level was significantly lowered whereas the levels for total cholesterol and HDL-cholesterol were unchanged. Conclusion: the present report shows that a 70-90 g carbohydrate diet is a feasible long-term alternative in the treatment of type 1 diabetes and leads to improved glycaemic control.

A link to that 2005 study can be found here http://www.dsolve.com/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_download/gid,24/

Oh and even in the study you are criticising Total Cholesterol rose because good HDL levels rose so that seems a good argument for adopting a low carb regime if you are T1 by the looks of it.

 

[xyzzy]

This is getting surreal :lol:

The majority of human existence on earth has been characterised by society made up of small bands of hunter-gatherers, who adapted and evolved in response to an ever-changing and often hostile natural environment. In Britain, evidence of early humans, in the form of stone tools, human remains and butchered animals, has been identified dating back at least half a million years. Recent discoveries in East Anglia potentially push this evidence back to over 800,000 years ago. Humans have not been continuously present during these millennia; a succession of ice ages rendered much of northern Europe, including the area now forming the British Isles, uninhabitable for long periods. Bands of hunter-gatherers, following migrating animal herds, would re-occupy the landscape during the warmer interglacials. This period, down to the end of the last Ice Age, is known to archaeologists as the Palaeolithic (or ‘Old Stone Age’).

... and where did I find this gem?

http://www.atownunearthed.co.uk/fol...palaeolithic-and-mesolithic-periods-overview/

a site on Folkstone in Kent :lol:

 

[borofergie]

So herbivores are mainly lean mammals according to some people? Try telling the Hippo or Giant panda that!

Try killing a hippo and then skinning it with a flint axe!! :lol:

There are plenty of archaeological remains of hunted mammoths. A hippo wouldn't be any more difficult than that.

 

[borofergie]

More on Bison hunting ....

bison were herded into large chutes made of rocks and willow branches and then stampeded over cliffs.

And how exactly would that have been accomplished in East Anglia, even in Kent where I live I'd have to herd them all the way to Dover to find a cliff and that wouldnt have been much help is it drops straight into the sea, thats if the cliffs were even there in palaeolithic times :lol:

So joking aside how exactly would a nomadic people have found handy cliffs to stampede extremely dangerous wild bison over?

The clue is in the word "Nomadic". They moved with the animal herds. No-one lived in East Anglia all the time.

 

[Defren]

This thread is like watching a game of tennis.

Seems it's game set and match to the Paleo brothers!

 

[xyzzy]

So joking aside how exactly would a nomadic people have found handy cliffs to stampede extremely dangerous wild bison over?

The clue is in the word "Nomadic". They moved with the animal herds. No-one lived in East Anglia all the time.

Try this from a site on England's past

http://www.zealmonline.co.uk/englandpast.html

Megafauna
England had many large land mammals from some 700,000 years ago. Their rise, which followed the fall of the reptiles 65 million years ago, saw a great increase in their size. They included Cave Bears, Cave Lions, elephants, hippos, hyenas, mammoth, panthers and tigers. Then, hunter-gathering Men arrived about 12,000 years ago. Half the megafauna went extinct in the next 2,000 years. The rest went with settlement, around 5-6,000 years ago.

So what did our ancestors do to make them go extinct ? ....

 

[xyzzy]

This thread is like watching a game of tennis.

Ah that's what it is .... I thought I was at a meeting of the flat earth society. :lol:

 

[RoyG]

Still think you and your mates can kill one with nothing more than a sharp stick or stone tool! And on foot just like a prehistoric/stone age man!

er... Yes. Isn't that exactly what modern hunter gatherer tribes do around the world today? I've even seen them do it on TV or was it all staged like the moon landings?

Do modern man, do as Borofergie was suggesting kill a Bison?

Notice the actual size of the animals that are hunted by tribes such as pygmies, they are quite a bit smaller than a Bison! And they have various methods that were available to prehistoric man! Such as blow pipes, the ability to entrap animals... But their meat intake was purely based on how successful their hunting was! And they relied a lot on the gathering aspect to ensure that they were fed! Plus don't forget their abilities of being able to store and preserve meat they've caught is something that has been created over millions of years, and techniques used were unlikely to have been around in prehistoric man's time!

But heck, seeing your other posts wonder what else you'll going to come up with to distract or should I say derail the thread!

Because where does lard and olive oil come into a debate on what sort of diet and hunting abilities that prehistoric man had!

I think the thread went off the rails and down the chasm ages ago, when we got into the theory of evolution and Darwinism. Wonder what stone age man's cholesterol was like :crazy: and what's wrong with Olive oil now? that's all I am using now for cooking, and dressing my salads, don't tell me I have to get lard instead now? my food bill is like the national debt, The missus thinks I'm losing the plot, just wait until I roll up with the squirrel, DIVORCE !!!! :roll: :roll: