So what's the truth about Cholesterol

[borofergie]

The flesh of animals our ancestors ate was generally quite lean, often with fat content around 10 percent of calories or lower. That fat was far more unsaturated than the fat in most modern meats as well and even provided some omega-3.

Grass fed meat, is grass fed meat. I showed you the photos of the inside of grass-reared Bison, and I've explained to you why this is wrong.

Again, how do carnivores get 70% of their energy from fat?

Prof. Cordain noted that the flesh of grass-fed cattle approximates the Paleo experience, albeit imperfectly. Game does so even better. I concur -- but how much of this is there in the modern food supply? In my experience, many people who use the Paleo diet as justification for carnivorous preferences simply eat more of the kind of meat they tend to find. And generally, they are not finding antelope...

His experience is a load of old ****. He is commenting on the Paleo community, he obviously doesn't know anything about it. There is plenty of grass-fed meat in the food chain, if you care to look for it. In my experience, the Paleo community is obsessive about meat quality - going out of their way to avoid anything that is fed with corn. It's not that difficult in the UK - most of our beef and lamb is grass reared. Most of them obsess about their Omega 3 to Omega 6 ratios.

None of this is evidence that Paleoman was just a "gatherer" and not a hunter. Nobody disputes that our ancestors also ate starchy roots and green-vegetables, but without cultivation it's very difficult to ge 2500kcal a day (or more) from gathering. Starches are a part of almost all Paleo diets (although not mine because I'm diabetic). The key point is the abscence of refined carbohydrates.

All of the anthropological data suggests that we evolved to get a significant portion of our kcal from meat. If you kill meat, you eat the fat.

All of which is a diversion. You didn't respond to my points about "Paleo man having access to Bison" and "venison not being lean".

You said:

And how many grass fed bison did paleo man stumble across?

And I showed you the evidence. Do you now concede the fact that Paleolithic "man" had access to Bison.

You said:

That is just not true Stephen, game animals are all very low fat ask any butcher, ask any chef if venison is fatty,

And I showed you the evidence. Do you concede that game animals can be fatty?

 

[RoyG]

If we evolved from eating fruits and roots, why have we got teeth that resemble that of a carnivore? what were the canine teeth used for, they were not for splitting nuts. Look is squirrel ok to put on the menu the look fat enough for me wont eat the Red ones just the grey

 

[borofergie]

If we evolved from eating fruits and roots, why have we got teeth that resemble that of a carnivore? what were the canine teeth used for, they were not for splitting nuts. Look is squirrel ok to put on the menu the look fat enough for me wont eat the Red ones just the grey

The grey ones are evil. Eat as many as you can.

I can remember the Red Squirrels in Hyde park when I was a kid. I haven't seen one for decades, since the evil grey buggers killed them all.

 

[Scardoc]

If we evolved from eating fruits and roots, why have we got teeth that resemble that of a carnivore? what were the canine teeth used for, they were not for splitting nuts. Look is squirrel ok to put on the menu the look fat enough for me wont eat the Red ones just the grey

Don't judge them on colour, they are all the same inside

 

[borofergie]

Don't judge them on colour, they are all the same inside

Are you asking me to dig out some more inside-out animal photos? :thumbup:

 

[Scardoc]

Don't judge them on colour, they are all the same inside

Are you asking me to dig out some more inside-out animal photos? :thumbup:

Not likely!! But I did expect someone to answer "Yes, they're all fat" :lol:

 

[RoyG]

Don't judge them on colour, they are all the same inside

Are you asking me to dig out some more inside-out animal photos? :thumbup:

YEH YEH

 

[jopar]

Stephen

What you are forgetting is that before you can eat an animal you've first got to actually catch/kill said animal!

Bison are actually farmed even though they are classed as a wild animal they not really, here's some information on Bison http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/aboutind/produ ... /bison.htm

Now Bison is low in cholesterol, but take a look at some of the details given here, to how dangerous they can be especially the males! And they can jump a 2m fence!

Still think you and your mates can kill one with nothing more than a sharp stick or stone tool! And on foot just like a prehistoric/stone age man!

But as I said, in my earlier post, you might try something a bit smaller and less dangerous... But then you've got the problem that the smaller an animal is the more likely it can shift a lot faster, so a faster smaller target to take aim at! But if it happens to be slow enough to make an easy target, generally it's pretty well armed with either a very tough hide or actual bone type armour such as a turtle! So maybe easier to catch but then a problem having enough strength and sharp enough tools to kill and open up! Animals that don't fit into either of these two, generally have some form of poison for defence!

But you are totally forgetting, that human's and animals in times of plenty will store excess in forms of fat for lean times, if prehistoric man had easy access to secure food at a regular bases their would be no need for the body to lean times!

Take your modern Bison that is farmed, now farmers will move them around the farm to ensure a supply of sound grazing, but if times get rough then the farmer will supplement their food if necessary! So the Bison is constantly in the 'plenty' stage waiting for the lean time that never comes!

Now a wild animal will be working with the seasons, so storing up fat for the lean times which for them will come, so dependant on the time of year you may find find fat on them, so in this country this is likely to be Autumn so they can survive the winter months!

And strangely wild rabbits and my supply of them is a lot better within the summer months than during winter months, as over winter they tend to lay low and reserve their energy supply! So a lot harder to catch/shoot!

Now, you asked me when I would expect your cholesterol levels to rise!

Well looking at the results of the Swedish T1 study just released, which was carb intake of >75g's, it showed that levels had raised at 6 months, and stayed raised at the 4 year marker! And if I remember rightly that in the group that failed the raise at 4 years was actually less than those who maintained the VLC diet!

What does need to be considered though is diet alone the only cause of raised cholesterol level's!

As when you think about it, high cholesterol can often be linked to obesity, when weight loss occurs them often cholesterol reduces as well! Now we know that people reduce their weight with various different diets...

So perhaps this could be an indicator, that the food we eat, will create and maintain cholesterol, but the body has the ability to produce cholesterol out of it own fat store! Where upon it's storing fat in ready for lean/starvation periods it also uses this fat to create cholesterol to stock up the blood to get us through the lean/starvations times to ensure we have a safe cholesterol amount!

 

[Sid Bonkers]

Grass fed meat, is grass fed meat. I showed you the photos of the inside of grass-reared Bison, and I've explained to you why this is wrong.

Sorry I was forgetting that you are an expert again

Again, how do carnivores get 70% of their energy from fat?

Probably by eating lots of it if thats what they need.

Prof. Cordain noted that the flesh of grass-fed cattle approximates the Paleo experience, albeit imperfectly. Game does so even better. I concur -- but how much of this is there in the modern food supply? In my experience, many people who use the Paleo diet as justification for carnivorous preferences simply eat more of the kind of meat they tend to find. And generally, they are not finding antelope...

His experience is a load of old ****.

Sorry again I didnt realise Professor Cordain was talking a load of old ****, he's obviously not an expert like you Stephen.

None of this is evidence that Paleoman was just a "gatherer" and not a hunter. Nobody disputes that our ancestors also ate starchy roots and green-vegetables, but without cultivation it's very difficult to ge 2500kcal a day (or more) from gathering. Starches are a part of almost all Paleo diets (although not mine because I'm diabetic). The key point is the abscence of refined carbohydrates.

Are you assuming that palaeolithic man needed 2500 kcals a day or have you proof? But assuming that that would be an optimum amount should he have a good days hunting and gathering arent you forgetting the new evidence that they ground grain/grass seed?

All of the anthropological data suggests that we evolved to get a significant portion of our kcal from meat. If you kill meat, you eat the fat.

No one would argue that was not true but I will still argue that most game is low fat and to say that venison is fatty is totally wrong and you can show me all the pictures that could be of anything and it wont change the truth, venison is low fat.

Oh and re Bison, yes Bison like animals were indeed around when early man walked the earth and I am not going to try to wriggle out of this one I was wrong, yes, I was wrong and big enough to admit it, I didnt think before I posted that, so please excuse me but I am not an expert. Of course there is no way of knowing whether early bison like animals were fatty, surely that would depend on the availability of a food source, how far they had to migrate to eat it and probably a few other unknown factors as well. What is certain is that deer/antelope type grazing animals were always going to be easier to kill than a bison, wouldnt you agree? And they're meat as I have already mentioned is low in fat as is that of rabbits and other small mammals, birds, sea food and shellfish too, wouldnt you agree?

 

[Scardoc]

What type of bread is made from a BISON?

Buffa-loaf! :lol:

 

[borofergie]

What you are forgetting is that before you can eat an animal you've first got to actually catch/kill said animal!

Bison are actually farmed even though they are classed as a wild animal they not really, here's some information on Bison http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/aboutind/produ ... /bison.htm

Now Bison is low in cholesterol, but take a look at some of the details given here, to how dangerous they can be especially the males! And they can jump a 2m fence!

Still think you and your mates can kill one with nothing more than a sharp stick or stone tool! And on foot just like a prehistoric/stone age man!

I don't think I could, but Paleolithic man certainly did - Bison and Mamoths too...

Here is a 20,000 year old picture of a wounded Bison with a spear in it's back, and a dying hunter:

And just for Sid, here are some people hunting some fat looking deer:

But as I said, in my earlier post, you might try something a bit smaller and less dangerous... But then you've got the problem that the smaller an animal is the more likely it can shift a lot faster, so a faster smaller target to take aim at! But if it happens to be slow enough to make an easy target, generally it's pretty well armed with either a very tough hide or actual bone type armour such as a turtle! So maybe easier to catch but then a problem having enough strength and sharp enough tools to kill and open up! Animals that don't fit into either of these two, generally have some form of poison for defence!

What's the point of this theorising? Are you denying that we evolved to eat meat? Why do you think that we have larger brains and smaller guts than any other primate?

Take your modern Bison that is farmed, now farmers will move them around the farm to ensure a supply of sound grazing, but if times get rough then the farmer will supplement their food if necessary! So the Bison is constantly in the 'plenty' stage waiting for the lean time that never comes!

:shock: You don't think that Bison grazing on the Great Plains had access to enough grass to make them fat? Look again at those cave paintings and tell me if the animals look skinny?

Now a wild animal will be working with the seasons, so storing up fat for the lean times which for them will come, so dependant on the time of year you may find find fat on them, so in this country this is likely to be Autumn so they can survive the winter months!

Hunting is seasonal. What's your point? Google "pemmican".

 

[Bob67]

Stephen

What you are forgetting is that before you can eat an animal you've first got to actually catch/kill said animal!

Still think you and your mates can kill one with nothing more than a sharp stick or stone tool! And on foot just like a prehistoric/stone age man!

Hello

You mean like this way?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_jump

Bob

 

[Scardoc]

[I don't think I could, but Paleolithic man certainly did - Bison and Mamoths too...

Here is a 20,000 year old picture of a wounded Bison with a spear in it's back, and a dying hunter:

And just for Sid, here are some people hunting some fat looking deer:

Is it just me or do those look like hellish skinny people!!! I think they may have been pretty rubbish hunters this lot.

 

[noblehead]

Is it just me or do those look like hellish skinny people!!! I think they may have been pretty rubbish hunters this lot.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[viviennem]

And they're meat as I have already mentioned is low in fat as is that of rabbits and other small mammals, birds, sea food and shellfish too, wouldnt you agree?

Prairie bison have a sort of hump across/behind their shoulders, if I remember rightly. They store fat in that, as well as elsewhere in their bodies. As far as I know, but I have never studied this, most of the range of animals that were about around 75000 years ago are pretty much the same as they are now. There have been extinctions, of course - eg Homo Neanderthalensis.

The fat of truly wild animals is very different in its omega ratios to domesticated, artificially fed animals, I believe. I eat grass-fed meat as much as I can, 'cos I only eat locally reared meat, but even fell-reared lamb is usually 'finished' with concentrates for a couple of weeks before being sent to market. Even farmed venison - which I eat regularly (only the cheap cuts ) - gets some concentrates these days.

Pigs, of course, are omnivores, just like us - their dentition, and ours, is designed for biting, tearing and chewing - canines and incisors for biting and tearing, molars for chewing on. So you can't get grass-fed pork - they rootle about below the ground surface for worms and slugs and beetles, and are quite partial to eggs and nestlings and tiny baby rabbits, mice etc. They are also great scavengers and carrion eaters, and will happily eat us too, if they find us lying about!

As for grass seed - it's only available seasonally, even in Madagascar as far as I know. I don't know how much yield there is from wild grasses, but I doubt if it's enough to supply the majority of calories for a year-round diet. Certainly emmer, einkorn, and 6-row barley, which were the first cultivated cereals in the Near East, can't be compared to the yield we get from modern, artificially-bred cereals. And it takes an awful lot of collecting. I don't know how their technology would manage with storing it - they had baskets and skins but no pots. Also very heavy to carry around, for an essentially nomadic group. If it gets damp it sprouts and may ferment - maybe that's where we got our first alcohol from - that and the wild grape harvest!

Squirrel tastes a bit like chicken, I believe. It's eaten in part of the southern states of the USA. Stephen, if you ever come up to the Dales, PM me. A friend of mine has red squirrels in her back garden, using the feeders about 6 feet away from the kitchen window.

In the spring they put peanuts on the inside ledge of their bedroom window, and the red squirrel kits come in and play on the bed!

I've only seen 2 greys up here in 12 years. They are shot on sight by the gamekeepers.

Viv 8)

 

[borofergie]

Sorry I was forgetting that you are an expert again

I don't apologise for being educated Sid.

Prof. Cordain noted that the flesh of grass-fed cattle approximates the Paleo experience, albeit imperfectly..


Sorry again I didnt realise Professor Cordain was talking a load of old ****, he's obviously not an expert like you Stephen.

Professor Cordain noted that the flesh of grass-fed cattle approximates to the Paleo experience. This is exactly my point, I was disagreeing with the blogger you were quoting, not Cordain.

Are you assuming that palaeolithic man needed 2500 kcals a day or have you proof? But assuming that that would be an optimum amount should he have a good days hunting and gathering arent you forgetting the new evidence that they ground grain/grass seed?

How much energy do you think it takes to be a hunter-gatherer. I doubt they were eating 16g of cornflakes and sitting on their backsides all day. We know how big they were - tall by current standards - and we know what the metabolic rate of modern humans is.

No one would argue that was not true but I will still argue that most game is low fat and to say that venison is fatty is totally wrong and you can show me all the pictures that could be of anything and it wont change the truth, venison is low fat.

All you need to know about venison fat. As you can see, if you kill them at the right time of the year they are very fat.
http://deerfarming.com.au/DFH/DFH19-Venison.pdf

Of course there is no way of knowing whether early bison like animals were fatty, surely that would depend on the availability of a food source, how far they had to migrate to eat it and probably a few other unknown factors as well. What is certain is that deer/antelope type grazing animals were always going to be easier to kill than a bison, wouldnt you agree? And they're meat as I have already mentioned is low in fat as is that of rabbits and other small mammals, birds, sea food and shellfish too, wouldnt you agree?

I don't agree. The effort expended in killing small animals such as rabbits is large in comparison to the amount of meat you'd get. A single Bison would feed the tribe for weeks, if not months.

See Viv's comments above - skinny Bison wouldn't have the depicted humps.

I'm sure that they'd eat whatever they could (paticularly very early in our evolotionary history). There is lots of evidence of fishing, but that doesn't help you if you live a long way from the sea.

 

[viviennem]

Never mind "depicted humps" (if you mean in the cave paintings) - bison are alive and well and living in Northern Europe (Russia, I think) and the USA, They have humps too!

Let's bring a bit of inclusivity into this discussion - using ethographic parallels (groan!) the women did most of the "gathering" while the men lounged around whittling their spears, knapping their flints and planning the next hunt. :lol:

Sorry about that! :wink:

Viv 8)

 

[xyzzy]

Still think you and your mates can kill one with nothing more than a sharp stick or stone tool! And on foot just like a prehistoric/stone age man!

er... Yes. Isn't that exactly what modern hunter gatherer tribes do around the world today? I've even seen them do it on TV or was it all staged like the moon landings?

 

[Bob67]

Let's bring a bit of inclusivity into this discussion - using ethographic parallels (groan!) the women did most of the "gathering" while the men lounged around whittling their spears, knapping their flints and planning the next hunt. :lol:

Sorry about that!

Viv 8)

Nothing to be sorry about, those were just the good ole days :crazy:

 

[Sid Bonkers]

I don't agree. The effort expended in killing small animals such as rabbits is large in comparison to the amount of meat you'd get.

But a lot safer and conducive to living a long life.

A single Bison would feed the tribe for weeks, if not months.

They must have had one hell of a fridge to fit a Bison in, or do you think they smoked it to preserve it for 'months'?