The knives are out..

bulkbiker

BANNED
Messages
19,575
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only

Goonergal

Master
Retired Moderator
Messages
13,465
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Thanks @bulkbiker

Looks like the usual evidenceless rubbish from the Daily Fail. In contrast to the evidence provided by those under attack.
 

britishpub

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,722
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Unfortunately they are an easy target, especially as the anti-vaccination crowd have been shown to have caused a huge increase in the cases of measles.

Fighting the system, even when you are right and have water tight evidence to back you up, will never be easy.
 
M

Member496333

Guest
“fake news about statins may have prompted 200,000 patients in Britain alone to quit the drug over a single six-month period”

 

hankjam

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,311
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
All power to Dr K, who works for the NHS, who would have thought otherwise....
 
  • Like
Reactions: OrsonKartt

Bluetit1802

Legend
Messages
25,216
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
The Mail on Sunday has several pages on this today, with large headlines.

"Statin deniers are putting patients at risk, says Minister (Health Secretary Matt Hancock)"
" Deadly propaganda of the statin deniers"
"It's worse than the MMR scare"
"The truth about the three 'experts' who say don't take statins."
"Fake news"
 
  • Like
Reactions: jjraak

bulkbiker

BANNED
Messages
19,575
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
The Mail on Sunday has several pages on this today, with large headlines.

"Statin deniers are putting patients at risk, says Minister (Health Secretary Matt Hancock)"
" Deadly propaganda of the statin deniers"
"It's worse than the MMR scare"
"The truth about the three 'experts' who say don't take statins."
"Fake news"
Interesting that the same Health Secretary was pictured with Aseem a couple of days ago...and a copy of the Pioppi Diet.. hmmm

Aseem+Hancock.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: OrsonKartt

Speedbird

Well-Known Member
Messages
349
Type of diabetes
LADA
Treatment type
Insulin
The Daily Mail! Who would even want to read that rubbish. I know from personal experience they just want to sensationalise and make money. If only more people could see through this. British Airways have already stopped loading this paper on board. Shame on Waitrose for offering it free.
 

Guzzler

Master
Messages
10,577
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Poor grammar, bullying and drunks.
"balls of fat"? Well I see a type of ball but that is not what a chylomicron equates to.

What a load of B...arney's.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jjraak

britishpub

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,722
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Ah the same Matt Hancock who is stockpiling “body bags” in case the worse happens.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SimonCrox

Mr_Pot

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,573
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Good to see we are all open minded on here and are prepared to consider both sides of the argument without prejudice. Personally I am not convinced either way. My wife had a heart attack 5 years ago and was prescribed statins by the senior consultant, she has been ok since with no obvious side affects and it would take a very convincing argument to suggest she should stop.
 

Guzzler

Master
Messages
10,577
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Poor grammar, bullying and drunks.
Good to see we are all open minded on here and are prepared to consider both sides of the argument without prejudice. Personally I am not convinced either way. My wife had a heart attack 5 years ago and was prescribed statins by the senior consultant, she has been ok since with no obvious side affects and it would take a very convincing argument to suggest she should stop.

To be open minded, to look at both sides of an argument one needs both sides to be open and honest.
 

Resurgam

Expert
Messages
9,868
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Five weeks of Metformin and Atorvastatin and I was unable to function normally - there seems to be no thought of a cautious approach, warning about side effects, what to be aware of. Also there is no way to report problems when two drugs are taken at the same time - so it remains 'safe and effective'.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SimonCrox

LittleGreyCat

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,245
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
Diet drinks - the artificial sweeteners taste vile.
Having to forswear foods I have loved all my life.
Trying to find low carb meals when eating out.
Good to see we are all open minded on here and are prepared to consider both sides of the argument without prejudice. Personally I am not convinced either way. My wife had a heart attack 5 years ago and was prescribed statins by the senior consultant, she has been ok since with no obvious side affects and it would take a very convincing argument to suggest she should stop.

Statins are generally a good idea for anyone who has already had a heart attack.

Not necessarily such a good idea for the rest of the population who haven't.

Oh, and congratulations to your wife for getting over the heart attack. Must have been scary times.
 

HSSS

Expert
Messages
7,477
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Wow. Just wow. I just spent the afternoon reading not just the links @bulkbiker provided but the links those documents did too. This marathon was because I was sufficiently shocked and concerned by the daily mails article (as no doubt at all was the intention) that I was shaken in my resolve never to take statins and thought I maybe should reconsider.

In short I still hold the same aversion to taking them because in this was in my personal opinion a hatchet piece and if I genuinely believe this to be the case how can I take seriously the claim it is making. I would not have known this however without reading the supporting articles and documents.

Reporters who got basic fact checking badly wrong, let alone subtler interpretations, and influences by a man who after reading all the documents seems professionally petty and defensive of open discussion and widely criticised for failing to share raw data are not instilling of confidence in their message. They have done more harm to their scientific pro statin argument in my mind than Wakefield did to the Mmr. (I ignored him too btw and vaccinated my children at the height of the scare). So whilst they are comparing the “deniers” to Wakefield in my mind they did just that to themselves.

The daily mail reporter has been extremely selective in the use of the “accused’s” response to the article requested before publication and deliberately twisted mention of the bmj’s correction of articles to imply a far greater degree of inaccuracies and totally failed to mention the review that stated the publication of the articles in no way merited retraction and were opinion with minor misinterpretation of data, emphasising “the mistake” the bmj editor was “forced” to apologise for on tv. He has used inflammatory language to emphasise his claims Harcombe “admits” she is not a medical dr and Kendrick “admitted” to an observational study.

He refers to the rare condition of FH as proof we should all take statins

He refers to the medical advice of eggs and even saturated fats causing high cholesterol being later disproved whilst simultaneously claiming the benefits of taking statins is not another of these mistakenly believed guidances.

And wasn’t Matt Hancock supporting at least 2 of these scarletans earlier this week?

To requote and misuse samani’s statement “The stories contain a grain of truth, mixed with speculation and opinion.” So too does this piece of “news”.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Prem51 and jjraak

hankjam

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,311
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
The thing about writing, or anything for that matter, is that when you see, or are informed, that something is wrong, you question the whole thing.
The first point Dr K made was that he is employed by the NHS by two NHS trusts and would sue anyone who suggested otherwise and win.
Why would you write something, which contained such a basic error, something easily fact checked?
Very poor effort from the DM.
 
M

Member496333

Guest
Why would you write something, which contained such a basic error, something easily fact checked?

Facts aren’t important in pieces like this. Most people believe everything they read. Sad but true. This article will have served its purpose of damage limitation. Facts are irrelevant, what’s relevant is what people believe.
 

HSSS

Expert
Messages
7,477
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
The thing about writing, or anything for that matter, is that when you see, or are informed, that something is wrong, you question the whole thing.
Exactly my feelings.

But most daily mail readers are unlikely to do the heavy duty reading I just did to establish just how bad the article was (and almost was even more inaccurate) and are likely to believe it in varying degrees and gobble an extra statin pill tonight. I guess it’ll balance the 2013’s temporary increased cessation of statins due to the anti statin coverage that occurred then.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Prem51 and jjraak

BrianTheElder

Well-Known Member
Messages
574
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Snide people
Funnily enough, I chose today to stop taking statins. I first stopped after getting my T2 under control with LCHF, then went back on a low dose after my cholesterol went through the roof (over 10) - I am a high responder.
But after 18 months or so, I eventually persuaded my wife that, with my age, it just doesn't make sense. I will continue to monitor my calcium score, which is very low.
So I was very surprised when I read Zoe's blog this morning. I am persuaded by rational argument, not frenzied attacks. It just shows how desperate they are.
 

Mbaker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,339
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Available fast foods in Supermarkets
This is no different to Profession Tim Noakes, Gary Fettke and others. For me this is about education. I look forward to the day when we can get these three and perhaps 20 to 30 others, with a similar amount on the "established side" in a world debate on this topic and diet.

"We" you and I could consider helping these people who are not just working on our behalf but I do not think it is an overstatement to say all of humanity - they are outanding and have put themselves out there against the power of the anointed - understand they the anointed have to win, even though just eating real food mostly sorts things out. It is difficult to mobilise our power, as I have seen when people try to start surveys. I would be happy to support a singular body that all of these goliaths and many others represent us through, there must be 100,000's of us who cross sectionally can agree on around 80% of things, think of all of those who are especially in the states Dr patients, those on this site, diet doctor, Facebook etc groups. I think we will have to do something as the attacks are coming from multiple directions and individuality doesn't hold a lot of water.. Truth or Scare, launched attacks on Keto a twice within a few days last week, one of the times scareing a fitness instructor off of carnivory.

I am clear I don't want to "win", I just want everyone to be aware of both sides, so an informed decision can be made.

I am not open to any further facts from the other side for the following reasons: I have listened to the big fat surprise around 3 times, various books for Gary Taubes, listened to 1000's of hours of debate on both sides, read as much as I can. I have seen that the diet heart hypothesis could not stand up to modern scrutiny, with goal posts changing several times. I have seen enough to satisfy me that HDL and Trigs are better CVD markers than LDL, I believe what I have read about persons with lower LDL have been shown to die either just a quickly or in more numbers than those with higher LDL. I do not believe meat, fish and dairy are the devils spawn, I think the contrary. Frankly, I don't even think the positions are close.

I have seen the results of CAC scans compared to Framingham, as highlighted by Ivor Cummins and others. Paul Mason also has convinced me with the science. In general I am convinced plaque build up's fix an underlying issue, and are not the cause. I think the statin promoters can only argue that a CAC scan, which easily trumps the risk factors they rely on, doesn't see soft plaque - however is you have zero hard plaque it, is likely you don't any or much soft plaque (this alone for me shuts down their claims). The Feldman protocol changing markers within 3 days speaks volumes about the variability of cholesterol numbers, clearly not the same as HbA1c. On 2 common sense notes, I do not believe that our bodies would make something to kill us, second explain why indigenous so called primitive populations do not have the risk factors (no yeah buts, this for me is insurmountable fact), even in a modern context compare Masai Kenyans to SAD eating towns people as 1 example. There is something very disingenuous about the risk factors. My QRISK2 is 2.1 (2.0 in 2012 when I was not diabetic), I did a QRISK3 a couple of days ago and this came out at 1.9, Doctor Eric Westman mentioned this on YouTube recently. I think LDL is marked down by the establishment as well, otherwise why would CVD risk go down on LCHF / Keto, with increased saturated fat in my case for example? I am also satisfied that high insulin is a much bigger risk factor than LDL. Finally LCHF / Keto interventions; on my walk today I listened to Stephen Phinney about the results of Virta studies, this had some interesting observations on CVD compared to statins, another health professional who has insurance approved services and a massive cohort has seen similar results to Virta for 10 years:

 
Last edited: