There is no such thing as a scientific 'proof'

mike@work

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My scientific calculation for the day..

Open minds + open hearts = a happier forum

:)

And no proof needed! :)

This was one of the best statements in a long time @Juicyj - short and friendly, but right on target. Not only are you worth my "winner", but also a thank you, for showing what is important here...

Mike
 
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Rachox

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For you @Juicyj xx

D9C4D858-A041-4C3A-9BED-E4217AB43759.jpeg
 

Juicyj

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I think @Brunneria should take the credit for opening this discussion, she get's my gold star :)
 
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Bittern

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When at university if I used phrases such as "it is evident that", "it can be shown" or worse the wrath of my professor would fall about my ears particularly if not referenced to an accredited study. Assertions of fact make for bad conclusions and are generally based on poor, often selective, data.

Our current scientific models work up to a point and generally agree with the observed facts, but only to a point. It is why there is still research. As an example Newtons theories on gravity work for every day use on Earth but they are not perfect and have been added to by Einstein.
 
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Guzzler

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My two pennorth.

Science is a living breathing animal. One should not become entrenched in the 'now' because the 'now' will change.
 
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NicoleC1971

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Great thread! My suggestion for the forum would be some information on interpreting scientific studies especially on the contentious topic of food (Denise Minger has a good chapter on the topic in her book Death by Food Pyramid).
It seems to me that this topic illustrates how 'reason is a slave to the passions'.
It i s interesting to see the different personalities on the forum and yes there is sometimes intolerance of doubt and a desire to be 'right' but more often a desire to understand, share our beliefs and learn from all our 'N of 1s' experiments confounded and biased though we inevitably are.
 

Fenn

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In the interest of a non competitive forum I think Fenn should also receive a gold star. not only for turning up but also for recognising the enhancement of this thread by his non participation.
 

Brunneria

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In the interest of a non competitive forum I think Fenn should also receive a gold star. not only for turning up but also for recognising the enhancement of this thread by his non participation.

I think that everyone should get a gold star just for reading this thread, and then they should get sparkly glitter added to their star (using craft glue) if they can remember the thread even exists by tomorrow. :D
 

Rachox

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I think that everyone should get a gold star just for reading this thread, and then they should get sparkly glitter added to their star (using craft glue) if they can remember the thread even exists by tomorrow. :D

Your wish is my command. Here’s some I prepared earlier :happy:

Edited for typo
 
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therower

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@Brunneria . This pains me immensely :) but I have to say I agree with your initial post.
I would give you a top banana award but that may be a step too far.:) Besides there seems to be a lot of spangly stars floating around.
 
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Mbaker

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What is your suggestion, on what is beneficial and what is not? And how we distinguish between them?

EDITED TO ADD VIDEO LINK AT THE BOTTOM OF WELL FORMULATED STUDIES (from around 10 to 23 mins). IT IS BREATHTAKING TO SEE SOME OF THE IGNORED EVIDENCE FROM 1976, NOTE THE TOP RIGHT REFERENCE AT 15 mins 21 seconds (THIS IS WHY SOME OF US THINK THERE IS A CONSPIRACY)

Where to start with this, as for example science creates unbelievably tasty treats based on the bliss principal, is this processed food good for us? I would say only in moderation, which is almost impossible.

A Typical Bad Study
If you are determined to prove meat causes cancer then do the following:
  1. Start with mice of whom 80% die of cancer no matter what
  2. Extract an element of meat
  3. Give the mice an agent that speeds up cancer
  4. Over feed the mice the extract
  5. Turn cancer indicators on and off via the extract
  6. Claim this proves meat causes cancer
Ignore all populations that eat meat mainly in a "cleaner" fashion, as if they don't exist and take in millions of believers. (by cleaner I mean minimally processed diet).

I think science should start with "clean hands", and a willingness to accept you might be wrong. You are meant to start with a hypothesis and then do your best to disprove it, along with others. There really is no point in the sugar industry investigating the benefits or otherwise of sugar. Alternative is full independence is a must.

I would say do not have multiple variables which could all be the cause of your hypothesis and then cherry pick what suits your case. Alternative is to measure real candidates who for example truly really eat what is of concern.

Stop retesting old epidemiology studies with new algorithms (torturing data) to effectively. I believe this is too compromised. Alternative for example cancer in meat, ask the carnivores on this site, and elsewhere to test their cancer (and other bio markers), as well as first world tribes.

Stop the ridiculous meta-analysis of bad datasets. Just because you averaged out 10 studies is completely meaningless if the 10 studies were junk in the first place. Alternative, don't do it.

Never knowingly mislead. Alternative, do not make public anything that does not pass the hazard ratio (2), and if you are going to discuss only cite the absolute risk (relative should be banned for obvious reasons).

Upfront ahead of the title declare all interests including financial backers.

We distinguish between good and bad studies by not having obvious contradictory observational evidence, again using meat, explain the current longest lived being the highest meat consuming in Hong Kong. By having a massive risk differential such as with lung cancer and smoking. By being able to prove something closer to conclusively, such as high LDL vs CAC score.

I am not a scientist but I have read enough to know the bare faced, let's call it what it is "lies" that some of these studies put out. I am excited for the day of reckoning.

I can feel my answer becoming too long so will end here.

 
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copilost

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dear junior research scientist please investigate this data set to see if peanut butter is preventative against - well anything really - if you find a positive answer please publish, if you find a negative answer don't publish, if there is no evidence please publish a paper stating peanut butter does not cause - well anything. thank you from a very public spirited "just trying to help" purveyor of.......
 

copilost

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Dear sponsor, I just wanted to say how delighted we are that you are funding our new and promising junior research scientist, such talent!

Obviously a healthy research portfolio provides substance to us as an upcoming/established/elite academic institution.

I myself, as an established authority on peanut butter, cannot be involved in speculative research of this nature but I'm always interested in the products as a source of legitimate future research. Looking forward to lunch on Tuesday……
 

Resurgam

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On the news today there is a report of a new drug to treat breast cancer - which is a pretty sneaky sort even for cancer.
If women have a particular genetic make up, and if they have access to treatment then they are seeing good things happening, a growing number are still alive when the usual shake of the dice has not been a double six and an extra go - some are reportedly free of the cancer - it is not a proof as such, but it seems likely that it is, for some, going to remove the problem.
This world is an uncertain place, but even when we do not have a rigorous proof, we do see trends which are encouraging from time to time,
 

pixie1

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The beauty of science is that it's fluid, it changes,, as understanding changes. What Is known now, won't be in the future. Otherwise the world would still be flat. The key essential ingredient are the Maverick's who question the science of today, against the mainstream thinkers. In science, just because 2+2=4 there maybe an element which has not been discovered, tackling something from a different angle, may provide the key. We know that Neathandral man did not suddendly disappear but absorbed, mixed in with modern man. There are always new discoveries.
 
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