View on low carbing.(part two)

timo2

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We're going to assume that you wrote that post during one of your missing three days, Sid. :D
 

phoenix

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In some ways, you're right Sid, I know that I enjoy the research and widening my own knowledge but this isn't everybodies idea of fun. Sometimes I end up finding out too much and writing too much,. For that I apologise.
Actually I agree with most of your last statement, I'm just about to eat, to drink and to be merry.... but I have to disagree with the last part.
This might explain better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXtGN197Ho8&feature=related
 

Doczoc

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phoenix said:
In some ways, you're right Sid, I know that I enjoy the research and widening my own knowledge but this isn't everybodies idea of fun. Sometimes I end up finding out too much and writing too much,. For that I apologise.
Actually I agree with most of your last statement, I'm just about to eat, to drink and to be merry.... but I have to disagree with the last part.
This might explain better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXtGN197Ho8&feature=related

I really think we're on dangerous ground if we start apologising for having an intellectual debate... :roll:
 

AliB

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Sid.......if you don't like the debate - get out of the kitchen. Nobody asked your opinion....... :|

Fibre, or not to fibre - that is the question......

It all depends where you live. Going back to my old favourites the Inuit and others who eat a similar diet, apart from possibly a bit of seaweed and a few blueberries when they can find them, they eat little in the way of fibre.

Then you go the other way and look at cultures that eat a lot of fibre. I remember Gillian McKeith doing a skit one day where she compared the quantity of poo excreted in a year by, I think, your average Nigerian, and the amount excreted by your average British 'Joe'. It was something like three times the amount.

At the end of the day how much you 'go' is more likely dictated by what, and how much, you eat than anything else. What dictates how well you go is an entirely different matter and probably has as much to do with how balanced, or imbalanced you gut flora is.

If you don't have the right mix down there, then there are going to be problems, as different food wastes will not be processed as they should be, and may end up being processed by the wrong type of bugs.

As i mentioned somewhere else, it seems that we carry something in the region of 5500 different types of microbe in our digestive tract. One course of antibiotics can wipe out a third of them in one fell swoop, never to return. That has to have a huge impact on how well, or badly our digestion works. What we eat will also impact on us. Lots of carbs and sugars will change the balance too. Someone pointed out that Candida is one of the microbes that helps to break us down when we die. Unfortunately, due to gut imbalance, drugs, mercury and all sorts of other rubbish it sometimes starts to do its job whilst we are still alive! If we are consuming stuff that leads to unnatural cell death, perhaps it is actually doing its job!

Unfortunately gut flora and how it impacts on us is an area of research that has had little money or interest thrown at it and what is known is very patchy. Whilst some microbes have been studied still little is known or understood about what they really do in the body and whether they are 'good' or 'bad'.

What most healthy cultures have in common is not whether they eat loads of fibre or not, or whether they eat loads of fat or not or even whether they eat loads of grains or not - it's the fact that they don't eat anything processed or 'mucked about with' or highly sugared or HFCS'd or adulterated from it's original and highly nutritious form. They also are not generally exposed to our 'civilised' 'Western' drug (prescription) culture either.

If and when they adopt our 'Western' diet and culture, unfortunately they adopt our Western diseases too.
 

sugarless sue

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Sid.......if you don't like the debate - get out of the kitchen. Nobody asked your opinion.

AliB everyone on this board is entitled to their opinion !! This is the discussion forum not the low carb forum.

If you don't like it ignore and pass on to the next post.
 

AliB

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Yes, it is the 'discussion' forum.

It's not that his input isn't welcome, but inferring that people are 'anal' just because they like to debate different subjects concerning their diet is not warranted. If 'Sid' doesn't like the discussion or is not even remotely interested in adding anything of interest to it then why even bother to comment? Why even bother to read it??

I wasn't the only one who found his comment quite offensive and totally unnecessary to the 'discussion'.

I am not in the least 'anal', but I do love a good 'brain-challenging' discussion. I appreciate that not everyone out there is interested in challenging their brain - if they have one. Their decision entirely.
 

Doczoc

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I don't follow the 'I could be run over by a bus tomorrow' strategy towards life. For me that's just defeatist, might as well curl up and die now. I've got far too much living to do yet. :D
 

graham64

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Hi,
This topic has been covered before in the LC forum:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=8995&hilit=fibre&start=15

And in the non LC forum

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=8990

You need to read both because the topic was split between the two forums, and as such some posts in the non LC forum have been answered in the LC forum, as mine to Phoenix was.

So what's new as far as I can gather nothing, I have yet to see any evidence that Low Carbers are suffering from the effects of a lack of fibre. Admittedly I have only been LC for 18 months but others after many years of LC have not experienced problems. As most of the high fibre foods put forward are also high in carbs I have a choice, Low Carb with all the benefits gained from low BG or increase the fibre rich carbs and risk the many complications of running high numbers. Statistics show there are 100 diabetes related amputations per week, I don't intend to go down that road.

If anyone is bothered about a lack of dietary fibre many low carbers have found flax is an excellent source of fibre at 23g per 100g, and it also can provide essential nutrients. Due to the high fibre content it can have a laxative effect so don't overdo it.

Flax!! There is almost no usable carbohydrate in flax seeds. It is very high in both soluble and insoluble fiber (about one third of the fiber is soluble), and has a pile of nutrients to boot. Flax is just could be the ultimate low-carb fiber source. 1 T ground flax has 2.0 grams of carbohydrate, 1.9 of which is fiber.

http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/nutrit ... counts.htm


Graham
 

NickW

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I happily admit I'm a geek when it comes to this stuff, and it probably comes across as being anal sometimes. No offense taken at being told this.

However, it's all interesting stuff and it's only by talking about things like this that you ever learn. It's only by reading similar discussions that I gave paleo I real try, and I'd never turn back. I don't want to turn this into a testimonial, but suffice it to say that I used to eat plenty of wholegrains as part of what most would consider a very healthy diet, and if it hadn't been for reading posts like this one I'd still be eating that way. And my A1C would still be above 7, I'd still have that last half-stone of podge on my now-flat stomach despite running marathons, and I'd still have a low-level feeling of bloating all the time.

phoenix, I think we're going to end up respectfully disagreeing on whole grains. As you rightly say, drawing nutritional conclusions is difficult; there are confounding factors in pretty much every study ever carried out, because replacing one food for another invariably introduces other factors. I can easily believe a diet containing whole grains can be an improvement over one that doesn't contain whole grains; but if what you're swapping out is (for example) HFCS or refined sugar then that's not really a surprise! I'd be surprised and amazed if any data could be found to show that swapping in grains in place of meat, fish, vegetables, nuts and seeds improves overall health (in all seriousness I'd also be very interested; I'm by no means a die-hard zealot, I've changed my mind on things previously and will again if something better can be shown. But nothing I've seen so far comes close to convincing).

For what it's worth, I think many people can tolerate some amount of whole grains without any real negative effects (though not everyone). But I cannot see any nutritional benefit in choosing whole grains over meat, fish, nuts, seeds, vegetables and fruit. Whole grains' anti-nutrients, highly acidic renal load and relatively high carbohydrate content aren't, in my opinion, outweighed by any nutritional value found in the grains. And for diabetics, it's the carb content that's the deal breaker in my opinion; it's simply not worth spiking your blood glucose (or increasing your insulin intake to cover it) for the rather paltry nutritional benefits you'd get from the grains. Eat some leafy green veg instead.

There's an interesting article on cereal grains from an evolutionary perspective here; it's an interesting piece, discussing both grains' role in advancing our civilisation and their importance in feeding the modern world, but also their deleterious health effects in most if not all people.

I'd also recommend the first part of this pack. This was written for a specific audience (it's an intro pack handed out before a seminar that's attended by athletic coaches), so there are some non-obvious references and in-jokes in there; but the content of the first article is relevant here. As an aside, the second article probably isn't of any interest (it's aimed at athletes eating to the Zone diet), but the later pieces on intermittent fasting and hormesis are interesting as well; intermittent fasting is something I'm going to look at seriously in the near future.

My final thought though is simple - for anyone wanting to improve their control but unsure whether to eat whole grains or not, try both approaches and see what suits you best. Try a month on a strict paleo diet with no grain and no dairy; test your blood, monitor how you feel and look and perform. Reintroduce grains or dairy or both for a month and test your blood, monitor how you feel and look and perform. Go with what suits your life and goals the best. That way you've made an informed choice based on your own reaction to your diet - this is the only real way of knowing what's best for YOU.

Thanks a lot for the discussion, it's been really interesting (at least to the anally retentive among us!)
 

Edwardia

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What bothers me as a new member of this forum, is how divisive the Low Carb issue is here.

Surely, it's common sense, to avoid highly processed, genetically modified,irradiated, chemical-laden foodstuffs if we can ? Organic may not be nutritionally superior,but it certainly doesn't have pesticide residues. How much of a contribution do they make to diabetes, coeliac or IBS ? Eating as healthily as we (realistically) can, is the responsibility of each of us. Most people would say that eating junk food takeaways, crisps, sweets, cakes, biscuits and pizza were unhealthy. So I have no sympathy for the I'm-going-to-carry-on-eating-biscuits-and-kebabs brigade, when they develop problems which lower BG would minimise.

On the other hand, the evangelism for Low Carb here,to the point that someone asks about the carbs in a carrot, is,IMNSHO pretty obsessive. For those people who restrict the pleasure out of their diet, don't see a big difference in their BG numbers and have to take drugs,are going to feel like complete failures. That's not good, we're supposed to be in the same lifeboat together,supporting each other,surely ?
 

sugarless sue

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That's not good, we're supposed to be in the same lifeboat together,supporting each other,surely ?

Quite right, Edwardia, this forum is for ALL diabetics. There are other forums on the net that cater for narrower bands of diabetes such as low carb and those that eat a higher carb diet. Members here should remember that and temper their posts to the overall ethos of this forum ,not just their own personal agenda.
There are many different ways of controlling diabetes and no one particular way should be pushed to the exclusion of the others on this forum.

We are here to support all diabetics and I think, in the main, we do just that.
 

wallycorker

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sugarless sue said:
.......There are many different ways of controlling diabetes and no one particular way should be pushed to the exclusion of the others on this forum.........
Sue,

I'm a non-insulin-dependent Type 2 and I'm totally unaware of the different ways to control my blood glucose levels that do not involve cutting down on some of the carbohydrates in my diet - especially the refined starchy carbohydrates such as cereals, bread, potatoes, rice and pasta etc.

I'd be interested to learn about any of the "many different ways of controlling" my diabetes that you refer to.

Best wishes - John
 

sugarless sue

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Diet, medication etc.

Many different diets many different medications, try a search of the forum ,you will find many different ways.
 

wallycorker

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sugarless sue said:
Diet, medication etc.

Many different diets many different medications, try a search of the forum ,you will find many different ways.
I've never come across one that does not involve my Type 2 condition progressing - i.e. deteriorating. Am I missing something? What are my options?
 

cugila

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Your options are to control your Diabetes by whatever means you can.

Your method isn't the only valid method. As can be seen in both success stories threads there are many ways to achieve this. There are people on this forum who use proprietary diet plans who also have had success. It's all there if you care to look.
 

wallycorker

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Hi Ken,

The other night I spent quite a lot of time looking at every single posting in the two different "Success Story" threads. With 18 pages in the "low-carb" thread and a more modest 5 pages in the "non low-carb" thread - that was no mean feat! However, even after having done that, it never registered with me that there was another plausible option for me - i.e. a non-insulin-dependent Type 2 - that did not involve me in cutting back in a big way on my carbohydrate intake. Unless, of course, I decided to leave my fate in the hands of the gradually increasing medication and inevitable progression and complications route.

Would you care to point me at one that you think does offer me a sensible option? I'd be very grateful if you would. Sue's comment makes me think that I'm missing something.

John
 

cugila

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I think you will have to do your own looking John. It would involve too much trawling through thousands of posts.

Leave it with you.
 

wallycorker

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I'm not convinced that there is one there Ken - so I don't intend reading them all again.

However, perhaps someone else will point me to a relevant post!

John
 

sugarless sue

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You're not missing anything ! :D
Whatever is working for you, keep on doing it. We are all different so another person's solution may not work for you at all.
We are human, made up of different DNA and biological processes. Unfortunately even though we do everything right some of us will develop complications despite our best efforts. Luck of the draw
I suppose you could call it. We will just have to do our best and hope for the best.