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More Support, less Advice for Newbies

lucylocket61 said:
This is a discussion. I am stating my opinion, and my reasons for my opinion. Others are doing the same. The results of all this discussion are up to the mods and PTB.
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And that's fine but it is just that.. your opinion.. it's not mine and it seems that it doesn't represent quite a few other people's opinions.. so where will this all lead?
And what is PTB please?
 
Well, when all said and done, you can lead a horse to water.....
 
im type one im happy with the diet. it reduced my need for 30% of my insulin. im hoping to lower it even further. obviously we need to be cautious not to promote extremes of any diet. but the simple truth is we need to reduce carbs. we could in theory stuff our faces on sweets ect and dose ourselves with big boluses on insulin. it may keep you bg down but its still buggering you up.

now simple advice that most agree on is test my consultant recommends 5-6 times a day. if your just relying on the 3 monthly test your not really getting an understanding of your own body.

simple advice on the need to lower carbs and not just cut sugar is a simple message thats needed at the very start. newbies like me are most motivated just post diagnosis

what we each do to control this condition is going to be unique to each of us. our end goal must be to have a population of diabetics not going blind not losing legs and not suffering other conditions. we need to be united in improving the care we get. ive been very luck with my doctors and nurses. we know them so its easier to be helpful and honest.

the biggest struggle ive faced is with my wife. she was taught the traditional diet is low fat. its taken a few months to prove to her that im not barmmy.

i think its time to be nice to each other. the only issue i have is with the vegan society. nowt wrong if thats what you want but im sorry but life without bacon is no life.

anyway thats my waffle over sorry if ive posted bad advice before. but none of us are doing it to hurt another.
 
bulkbiker said:
And that's fine but it is just that.. your opinion.. it's not mine and it seems that it doesn't represent quite a few other people's opinions.. so where will this all lead?
And what is PTB please?
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PTB - Powers that Be - the ones in charge of the site content on here.

My views may not represent all people opinions, very few things in life would, but judging from the button clicks and responses to my original post, and messages I have received, I am not alone in my opinions. Not that that matters, as our opinions are our own.

I am not posting on this issue to curry favour, I am speaking my truth about something which bothers me a lot. What happens after that, if anything, is not up to me. I have spoken out and unburdened myself about a subject which has worried me and those who wish to comment on this subject have aired their opinions, truth and views, and I am glad I have done so. That is the purpose of discussions, yes?

From the Oxford Dictionary:

discussion
dɪˈskʌʃ(ə)n/
noun
  1. the action or process of talking about something in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas.
    "the committee acts as a forum for discussion"
    • a conversation or debate about a specific topic.
      plural noun: discussions
      "discussions about environmental improvement"

Where do you think this will all lead?
 
I'm really grateful for this thread and a few others we have had over recent months. I think although emotions can run high, it's a good idea to take a step back and look at how we are doing and how we can improve things for each other and new members.

I like the post about being the change you want to see, even if you are a lone voice you maybe what is needed.
 
Alison Campbell said:
I'm really grateful for this thread and a few others we have had over recent months. I think although emotions can run high, it's a good idea to take a step back and look at how we are doing and how we can improve things for each other and new members.

I like the post about being the change you want to see, even if you are a lone voice you maybe what is needed.
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Sure.
Better than ignoring the elephant in the room.
 
lucylocket61 said:
However, by posting this: "We suggest you fast for 24 hours, and use that time to google low carb diets, implementing the changes to your diet on recommencing eating. " for an initial post for newbies, that is exactly what you are suggesting should happen in the future.
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Yep I agree , I'm obviously feeling a bit feisty today !

That is what I suggested and yes I agree its kinda radical and is very unlikely for anyone to actually buy into advocating here however I still think its would be a good approach for a newly diagnosed person to adopt. Please bear in mind I am distinguishing those not already on insulin type drugs. I am obviously not talking about anyone who is unfortunate enough to find that their diagnosis comes from a medical emergency either (who will also be on a drug regime at the point they arrive here).

However there are dozens of people just like me, who had a vague feeling something wasn't quite right, or who were surprised to find they suddenly failed a blood test and their doctor blithely told them they would need drugs for the rest of their lives for this progressive disease that would kill them early, or leave them sightless or limbless or both. Many of those left that very first meeting with a prescription or the promise of one within days.

My goal would be to get those people to adopt the diet quickly before they have become submerged in the general obfuscation about drugs and diabetes. For very many of those people they will be led down a drug dependency path and a " slow change" path when both of those will continue to do damage, not just regarding the actual diabetes, but from myriad side effects..

The slower those people are to adopt the necessary changes the more damage they are doing to themselves and actually its worse than it was the day before they were diagnosed, because now not only do they now have high blood sugar, but they also have a bunch of possibly poor advice that may make matters worse to contend with depending on where their searches take them and who their doctor was. ( I am still reeling from my failed date with an NHS specialist diabetes doctor - who told me his FIRST action on giving a diagnosis of diabetes to ALL his patients was to put them on insulin immediately !) .

The evidence regarding the efficacy of restricting carbohydrates in the diet of T2 diabetics is now utterly clear. I appreciate completely that the whole "low carb" debate has been going on for years. However the weight of evidence that has now emerged from not only the success stories posted here, but the data from the low carb program has now reached huge proportions.

My reasons for the 24 hour fast would be :

a) the fact that it might cause a slight increase in dawn blood sugars when blood sugars are already all over the place is most probably immaterial to the figures showing up on any monitor, it does start to lower your circulating insulin immediately.
b) it is a positive "DO something" that makes one feel like there is an immediate to do and its only for 24 hours
c) it focuses the mind to look very seriously at what all the advice says about what foods will be suitable going forward so that you can be very clear that things HAVE to change - no matter who you are , the diagnosis IS a signal that diet MUST change - if you are going to stand any chance of beating it then you HAVE to do something. That something must include getting rid of a lot of things you were eating before, no matter how low carb you choose to go.

When any of us try to help by giving advice " too soon" or "too radical" it is only really because we desperately want people to understand the above. The clearer the guidance given about the underlying truth the better.

People do not resolve T2 with drugs, they do get better from changing diet - that is now utterly clear.
 
I think @lucylocket61 has brought some thought provoking items to a riveting discussion, which reminds me of say low cal vs low carb for Type 2 potential reversal. It got me thinking about the advice I put forward...and I have found I have been a bit more self regulatory (I think) over time - often saying something like "if you want further advice just ask", when really I am chomping at the bit to give all the what I consider route 1 advice that took me around a year to gain.

I respect the OP's view, but if push came to shove would have to say I disagree mildly for those with a lower diagnosed HbA1c's, say a just above pre-diabetic, but I strongly disagree for those with an initial HbA1c of say what I had at 134. This felt like death was imminent and that I had weeks or days to exist. I recall massive brain fog, tingling sensations, continual toilet use and poor eye sight - I needed low carb etc advice immediately, which is why is disagree with the OP.

One size does not fit all, but I think for the majority of Type 2's many on this site could say for drinks some options are water, teas, coffee (but be careful if you have high blood pressure) are ok. And for food if you are not vegetarian or vegan, you could chose from any selection of meat, fish, salad, above ground vegetables, nuts, dairy and berries perhaps in moderation. If you take breakfast, bacon, eggs or any type, tomatoes and mushrooms could be a good place to start, or nuts, some berries and greek yogurt. For those who are vegan and vegetarian other examples could be given. Spices and condiments can be used, but if you have high blood pressure watch the salt intake. For me this type of advice would have saved a year of in my opinion Eatwell counter intuitive advice for Type 2's, I can't see what harm this would cause to someone with effectively glucose intolerance as a start (and like me was having poor outcomes), especially compared with the standard food which does not make diabetes better. There's enough initial choice for those like me who did not have a clue, and if you can't tolerate diary or berries then take another option.

I would like to see Daisy's advice increased with some basic get me started meal suggestions, for meat / fish eaters, vegans, vegetarians and whole food plant based. In addition information on the Newcastle Diet (and possibly Blood Sugar Diet). If this additional information were given. My experience is that doing LCHF naturally set me up for intermittent fasting and if required Keto, what would be wrong with stating this is possible. I see no problem saying aim for the stars and you might get the moon in terms of diabetes control (if you want to). It is obvious to me Daisy's advice has been well considered and every word / sentence carefully constructed, I would have thought the additional information could be skilfully placed.
 
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Mbaker said:
I think @lucylocket61 has brought some thought provoking items to a riveting discussion, which reminds me of say low cal vs low carb for Type 2 potential reversal. It got me thinking about the advice I put forward...and I have found I have been a bit more self regulatory (I think) over time - often saying something like "if you want further advice just ask", when really I am chomping at the bit to give all the what I consider route 1 advice that took me around a year to gain.

I respect the OP's view, but if push came to shove would have to say I disagree mildly for those with a lower diagnosed HbA1c's, say a just above pre-diabetic, but I strongly disagree for those with an initial HbA1c of say what I had at 134. This felt like death was imminent and that I had weeks or days to exist. I recall massive brain fog, tingling sensations, continual toilet use and poor eye sight - I needed low carb etc advice immediately, which is why is disagree with the OP.

One size does not fit all, but I think for the majority of Type 2's many on this site could say for drinks some options are water, teas, coffee (but be careful if you have high blood pressure) are ok. And for food if you are not vegetarian or vegan, you could chose from any selection of meat, fish, salad, above ground vegetables, nuts, dairy and berries perhaps in moderation. If you take breakfast, bacon, eggs or any type, tomatoes and mushrooms could be a good place to start, or nuts, some berries and greek yogurt. For those who are vegan and vegetarian other examples could be given. Spices and condiments can be used, but if you have high blood pressure watch the salt intake. For me this type of advice would have saved a year of in my opinion Eatwell counter intuitive advice for Type 2's, I can't see what harm this would cause to someone with effectively glucose intolerance as a start (and like me was having poor outcomes), especially compared with the standard food which does not make diabetes better. There's enough initial choice for those like me who did not have a clue, and if you can't tolerate diary or berries then take another option.

I would like to see Daisy's advice increased with some basic get me started meal suggestions, for meat / fish eaters, vegans, vegetarians and whole food plant based. In addition information on the Newcastle Diet (and possibly Blood Sugar Diet). If this additional information were given. My experience is that doing LCHF naturally set me up for intermittent fasting and if required Keto, what would be wrong with stating this is possible. I see no problem saying aim for the stars and you might get the moon in terms of diabetes control (if you want to). It is obvious to me Daisy's advice has been well considered and every word / sentence carefully constructed, I would have thought the additional information could be skilfully placed.
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Interesting Prof Tim Noakes tweeted this today .... in response to a question about what is normal fasting blood sugar.

"Up to 5mmol/L. But fasting insulin is probably more important. Best to have values below 5uIU/ml. A normal fasting blood glucose concentration with an elevated fasting blood insulin concentration indicates insulin resistance/pre-diabetes and indicates need to reduce dietary carbs."

The message is getting out, but it can't come soon enough to save many many people currently suffering unnecessarily - Just think how any here have moaned about the side effects of metformin. There are thousands of people going through that every day not knowing there is any another option to try.

Basically the low carb advice is appropriate for the majority of the population today not just people with diabetes - given that the "normal " range insulin is 2-25 . No wonder we are all getting ill! ( as an aside - I am now three days into no food - and I have zero hunger pangs and no side effects - I wouldn't have believed it was possible :) - it seems to be making me opinionated though lol.
 
The moderators keep asking us to report posts we have a problem with. That advice makes more sense to me than opening threads about what newbies do or do not need from the forum. Everybody's need will be different. No forum could ever be all things to all people.

IMO all threads like this do is offend people who believe they are doing the right thing and discourage readers from taking part in the forum in case they're singled out for not doing it "right". Anonymous potshots about "them" on the open forum and what they are doing wrong don't help anbody. If you've got a problem, report it to the mods. What's so hard about that?
 
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CherryAA said:
Yep I agree , I'm obviously feeling a bit feisty today !

That is what I suggested and yes I agree its kinda radical and is very unlikely for anyone to actually buy into advocating here however I still think its would be a good approach for a newly diagnosed person to adopt. Please bear in mind I am distinguishing those not already on insulin type drugs. I am obviously not talking about anyone who is unfortunate enough to find that their diagnosis comes from a medical emergency either (who will also be on a drug regime at the point they arrive here).

However there are dozens of people just like me, who had a vague feeling something wasn't quite right, or who were surprised to find they suddenly failed a blood test and their doctor blithely told them they would need drugs for the rest of their lives for this progressive disease that would kill them early, or leave them sightless or limbless or both. Many of those left that very first meeting with a prescription or the promise of one within days.

My goal would be to get those people to adopt the diet quickly before they have become submerged in the general obfuscation about drugs and diabetes. For very many of those people they will be led down a drug dependency path and a " slow change" path when both of those will continue to do damage, not just regarding the actual diabetes, but from myriad side effects..

The slower those people are to adopt the necessary changes the more damage they are doing to themselves and actually its worse than it was the day before they were diagnosed, because now not only do they now have high blood sugar, but they also have a bunch of possibly poor advice that may make matters worse to contend with depending on where their searches take them and who their doctor was. ( I am still reeling from my failed date with an NHS specialist diabetes doctor - who told me his FIRST action on giving a diagnosis of diabetes to ALL his patients was to put them on insulin immediately !) .

The evidence regarding the efficacy of restricting carbohydrates in the diet of T2 diabetics is now utterly clear. I appreciate completely that the whole "low carb" debate has been going on for years. However the weight of evidence that has now emerged from not only the success stories posted here, but the data from the low carb program has now reached huge proportions.

My reasons for the 24 hour fast would be :

a) the fact that it might cause a slight increase in dawn blood sugars when blood sugars are already all over the place is most probably immaterial to the figures showing up on any monitor, it does start to lower your circulating insulin immediately.
b) it is a positive "DO something" that makes one feel like there is an immediate to do and its only for 24 hours
c) it focuses the mind to look very seriously at what all the advice says about what foods will be suitable going forward so that you can be very clear that things HAVE to change - no matter who you are , the diagnosis IS a signal that diet MUST change - if you are going to stand any chance of beating it then you HAVE to do something. That something must include getting rid of a lot of things you were eating before, no matter how low carb you choose to go.

When any of us try to help by giving advice " too soon" or "too radical" it is only really because we desperately want people to understand the above. The clearer the guidance given about the underlying truth the better.

People do not resolve T2 with drugs, they do get better from changing diet - that is now utterly clear.
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For some.
 
NoCrbs4Me said:
I think this thread has run it's course.
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Is that a kind way of sayin..... here we go again!
The ranting of posters who want to bully others into changing there experience?

You are too kind to say it.

@CherryAA . Put yourself in other peoples shoes. Not all have same needs. Yes diet is important but diet only doesn't work for everyone hun.
Can you please accept this? Not everyone is like you.
 
I think pushing a thread asking for thought to be given about when, how, and by how many voices advice can be most helpfully & appropriately offered to others, particularly but not exclusively the newly diagnosed, into a frame of “us vs them”, “ agree or leave” and yet another iteration of “ my advice is better.......” is a) symptomatic of a fundamental problem b) ( delberately?) missing the point and c) because of the above, is in danger of being rather shallow
 
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bulkbiker said:
Probably to more goodbye threads as either you get your way and those that disagree leave or vice versa.. it just makes the forum weaker to keep bringing up individual dislikes, in my humble opinion, and that is a great shame.
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I'd personally like all goodbye threads to be banned/removed. That's what the PM system is for if you feel the need to say goodbye to your friends.

I guess I'm confused as to why anyone thinks a privately run forum is somehow a democracy where we get to debate, dispute, argue about how the forum should be run. That's the owner's ultimate call and that's what the rules are for.
 
bulkbiker said:
Probably to more goodbye threads as either you get your way and those that disagree leave or vice versa.. it just makes the forum weaker to keep bringing up individual dislikes, in my humble opinion, and that is a great shame.
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And here we go with the polarising.

The mods asked that this thread be continued, they are interested in all our views. This is a subject they want to hear about. I know this from their posts on here on the subject.

This is not about winning or losing, nor is it about getting my way or you getting your way in trying to make me stop posting on this thread by turning into a contest.

Discussion is not a bad thing.
 
bulkbiker said:
Probably to more goodbye threads as either you get your way and those that disagree leave or vice versa.. it just makes the forum weaker to keep bringing up individual dislikes, in my humble opinion, and that is a great shame.
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I agree. I could have just clicked the tick but I wrote something like this last night and deleted it.
 
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