BG spikes and eating naked carbs on keto diet

[AA11]

Hi All,
Just joined. This is my first post. Its been a relief to find this forum, an oasis in the desert. Its brilliant and much of my questions I have had are being discussed. Over the past year have lost weight, ate keto with careful counting and increased exercise yet my Hba1c is still bordering/is pre-diabetic. This has been surprising and frustrating! The current thing I am questioning about what I am doing is whether I need to be more careful of the composition of each meal. I recently watched youtube 'how to avoid blood sugar spikes( without reducing carb intake)' produced by 'nourishedbyscience' (sorry I am a newbie and can't post a link) Disclaimer: This is NOT SPECIFICALLY AIMED AT DIABETICS. But one of their tips seemed sensible advice and that was to avoid eating 'naked carbs' . It showed a graph showing in their case ( 1 person only!) the difference in eating porridge alone ( high BG spike) vs porridge with protein or oils, namely scrambled eggs ( much less of a spike). Looking back on what I have been doing I realised that I might not have always been careful about avoiding naked carbs but more focused on the daily sum total of carbs eaten (20 to 30 g ) and the ratio of carbs fats anf protein( 10% 70% 20%) . So I might have been periodically spiking my BG, giving rise to continuing pre-diabetic levels of Hba1c. I welcome opinions on this and whether there has been discussion on this forum about what 'nourishedbyscience' is saying as it was a random internet find. My apologies if going over already things already discussed. Just point me to where I can find the discussion.

 

[Antje77]

So I might have been periodically spiking my BG, giving rise to continuing pre-diabetic levels of Hba1c.

What about using a meter to test before and after meals to see how different meals affect you?
A meter has no bias or beliefs in certain ways of eating, it simply shows you what is.

I think you'll like to have a read of this, written by one of our members: https://josekalsbeek.blogspot.com/2019/11/the-nutritional-thingy.html

 

[TheSecretCarbAddict]

I think that the underlying principle here is that processing carbohydrate based foods (cooking, cooling, mixing with other macronutrients, etc.) can change their GI/GL values and consequently their impact on your blood glucose. There are also those who suggest that the order in which you eat your meal will affect your blood glucose differently as it will change how quickly your body digests the food. While there might be some merit here, I personally see these approaches more as micro-optimisations if you really want to push the boundaries. For most people, significantly reducing carb intake and balancing protein will do the trick.

 

[AA11]

What about using a meter to test before and after meals to see how different meals affect you?
A meter has no bias or beliefs in certain ways of eating, it simply shows you what is.

I think you'll like to have a read of this, written by one of our members: https://josekalsbeek.blogspot.com/2019/11/the-nutritional-thingy.html

Thank you for replying.
I think using a meter to test before and after meals/snacks is a good one. Over the course of the last 6 months I have been periodically testing using a keto mojo, usually 2 hrs after meals. Never seen a reading over 5.9 and most around 5.2 so a big surprise when my Hba1c came back at 6%. The keto mojo test strips seem expensive- I would be interested to know what meters are used in the UK with the hope of finding something cheaper. I am also thinking of doing a two week CGM trial..
Thanks for reminding me of that very good blog post which I have previously read. I read it again and realized that one of the things I have been struggling with is accepting prediabetes does not have a simple/formulaic 'fix '. Hey Ho!

 

[AA11]

I think that the underlying principle here is that processing carbohydrate based foods (cooking, cooling, mixing with other macronutrients, etc.) can change their GI/GL values and consequently their impact on your blood glucose. There are also those who suggest that the order in which you eat your meal will affect your blood glucose differently as it will change how quickly your body digests the food. While there might be some merit here, I personally see these approaches more as micro-optimisations if you really want to push the boundaries. For most people, significantly reducing carb intake and balancing protein will do the trick.

Thank you replying. I was wondering if this was as you say, a case of 'micro-optimisation' with the big picture moving towards reducing carbs and balancing protein. In the article they outline 6 actions to take: 1. Minimize foods with high glycemic index, 2. Eat starchy food after retrogradation 3.Don't eat naked carbohydrates 4. Add vinegar to high carb meals 5. use the second meal effect ( in short include carbs, protein and fiber in meals preceding high carb meals and don't switch back and forth between hi carb and low carb meals) 6. Go for a walk within 30 min of high carb meal.

 

[shelley262]

Tagging @Rachox for some information about meters in UK

 

[Rachox]

Thanks for the tag @shelley262 , here’s some info with links for UK meters, and to be clear I have no commercial connections with any of the companies mentioned.



HOME HEALTH have the Gluco Navii, which is a fairly new model and seems to be getting good reviews.

https://homehealth-uk.com/all-produ...ose-meter-test-strips-choose-mmol-l-or-mg-dl/



Links to the strips for future orders:

https://homehealth-uk.com/all-products/glucose-navii-blood-glucose-test-strips-50-strip-pack/



Then they sell the older SD Code Free, details to be found here!

https://homehealth-uk.com/all-products/codefree-blood-glucose-monitoring-system-mmoll-or-mgdl/





SPIRIT HEALTHCARE have a meter called the Tee2 + which is quite popular:

https://shop.spirit-health.co.uk/co...e2-blood-glucose-meter?variant=19264017268793



The strips are to be found here:

https://shop.spirit-health.co.uk/co...py-of-tee2-test-strips?variant=19264017367097



If there is a choice of units of measurement then ‘mmol/L’ are the standard units in the UK, ‘mg/dl’ in the US, other countries may vary.



Don’t forget to check the box if you have diabetes so you can buy VAT free. (for all meters and strips)

 

[shelley262]

Testing your bgsbefore and after food will give the best information about you and about your individual responses to carbs and the amount you can tolerate or not Before putting your bgs up. Sometimes forum members find a particular hack such as eating food in a certain order and Apple cider vinegar before meals helps but no general hacks work for all of us you can only try it and see how you react.
If you are keen to learn as much as possible and you seem to read around why not listen to some good podcasts from a few doctors who really know what they are talking about. Search for people like
Dr Eric Westman with his keto made simple talks
Dr Jason fung and his fasting information
Dr David Unwin on low carb
Dr Ben Bikman on insulin resistance and many many more besides ....... Ask if you'd like more recommends. I tend to listen to podcasts often great for info and motivation.

 

[KennyA]

Thank you replying. I was wondering if this was as you say, a case of 'micro-optimisation' with the big picture moving towards reducing carbs and balancing protein. In the article they outline 6 actions to take: 1. Minimize foods with high glycemic index, 2. Eat starchy food after retrogradation 3.Don't eat naked carbohydrates 4. Add vinegar to high carb meals 5. use the second meal effect ( in short include carbs, protein and fiber in meals preceding high carb meals and don't switch back and forth between hi carb and low carb meals) 6. Go for a walk within 30 min of high carb meal.

Hi and welcome. I think all these suggestions are attempts to allow folks to eat more carbs and avoid the raised glucose consequences. Some may well work for some people - I've not tried any of them myself, apart from looking at GI which makes absolutely no difference to me.

Largely this is because I've found that reducing carb intake overall (to around 20g/day) is what works for me.

 

[MrsA2]

Personally I'm quite sceptical about 'hacks' to allow high carb eating.
It reminds me of the days when Diet drinks were introduced and we all started drinking Diet Coke so that we could spend our calories on Mars Bars instead (other drinks and snacks are available).

I'm happy and satisfied enough on low carb not to need to or want high carb so haven't tried any of the hacks, but do watch those that do with mild interest.

I'm happy to be proved wrong in due course

 

[AA11]

Tagging @Rachox for some information about meters in UK

Thank you !

 

[AA11]

Thanks for the tag @shelley262 , here’s some info with links for UK meters, and to be clear I have no commercial connections with any of the companies mentioned.



HOME HEALTH have the Gluco Navii, which is a fairly new model and seems to be getting good reviews.

https://homehealth-uk.com/all-produ...ose-meter-test-strips-choose-mmol-l-or-mg-dl/



Links to the strips for future orders:

https://homehealth-uk.com/all-products/glucose-navii-blood-glucose-test-strips-50-strip-pack/



Then they sell the older SD Code Free, details to be found here!

https://homehealth-uk.com/all-products/codefree-blood-glucose-monitoring-system-mmoll-or-mgdl/





SPIRIT HEALTHCARE have a meter called the Tee2 + which is quite popular:

https://shop.spirit-health.co.uk/co...e2-blood-glucose-meter?variant=19264017268793



The strips are to be found here:

https://shop.spirit-health.co.uk/co...py-of-tee2-test-strips?variant=19264017367097



If there is a choice of units of measurement then ‘mmol/L’ are the standard units in the UK, ‘mg/dl’ in the US, other countries may vary.



Don’t forget to check the box if you have diabetes so you can buy VAT free. (for all meters and strips)

Thank you very much for this list! Very helpful I will have a look!

 

[AA11]

Testing your bgsbefore and after food will give the best information about you and about your individual responses to carbs and the amount you can tolerate or not Before putting your bgs up. Sometimes forum members find a particular hack such as eating food in a certain order and Apple cider vinegar before meals helps but no general hacks work for all of us you can only try it and see how you react.
If you are keen to learn as much as possible and you seem to read around why not listen to some good podcasts from a few doctors who really know what they are talking about. Search for people like
Dr Eric Westman with his keto made simple talks
Dr Jason fung and his fasting information
Dr David Unwin on low carb
Dr Ben Bikman on insulin resistance and many many more besides ....... Ask if you'd like more recommends. I tend to listen to podcasts often great for info and motivation.

Thanks for replying and sharing your experience. All helpful. Thanks, too, for the recommendations! I got started on LCHF with the Unwins but the others are not familiar. I thought going LCHF would fix everything so did not look further! I ordered the Diabetes Code and will work through your list. Yes would love more recommendations, especially podcasts.

 

[AA11]

Hi and welcome. I think all these suggestions are attempts to allow folks to eat more carbs and avoid the raised glucose consequences. Some may well work for some people - I've not tried any of them myself, apart from looking at GI which makes absolutely no difference to me.

Largely this is because I've found that reducing carb intake overall (to around 20g/day) is what works for me.

Thank you for replying and sharing your experience. Yes, I share your views. I am definitely on board with LCHF and 20g-30g carbs/day and not wanting to eat more carbs. My question about these hacks arose that after being on LCHF for 6 months, to my surprise, my body's reaction was opposite to what most experience and my Hba1c rose to be definitely diagnosed pre-diabetic and my lipids panel skyrocketed ( like the Lean Mass Hyper Responder profile). So my question was whether these suggestions would help someone already on LCHF to lower their Hba1c. I think with more metering meal by meal, as has been suggested, I will have a better understanding of whether anything more can be done with my diet.

 

[AA11]

Personally I'm quite sceptical about 'hacks' to allow high carb eating.
It reminds me of the days when Diet drinks were introduced and we all started drinking Diet Coke so that we could spend our calories on Mars Bars instead (other drinks and snacks are available).

I'm happy and satisfied enough on low carb not to need to or want high carb so haven't tried any of the hacks, but do watch those that do with mild interest.

I'm happy to be proved wrong in due course

Thank you for your reply and sharing your experience. As I replied to Kenny A, I share this/your view and will do more metering.

 

[MrsA2]

@AA11
The 'hack' that seems to help a lot of us is fasting, or time restricted eating.

Perhaps if you could share a couple of days worth of typical eating, exercise and food times with us, we could see if we might spot anything amiss?

 

[shelley262]

Thanks for replying and sharing your experience. All helpful. Thanks, too, for the recommendations! I got started on LCHF with the Unwins but the others are not familiar. I thought going LCHF would fix everything so did not look further! I ordered the Diabetes Code and will work through your list. Yes would love more recommendations, especially podcasts.

I'm attending the following conference online it's £59 for the two days lots of great speakers and you can listen to any of them again over the following two weeks. Ive attended a lot of previous conferences in person and last year did virtual which I'm doing this year too. Lots to learn - very motivating I'd recommend.

PHC ANNUAL CONFERENCE – 18th, 19th & 20th MAY, 2024 – LONDON – Public Health Collaboration

phcuk.org

 

[LivingLightly]

Type 2 is a very individual disorder, but these hacks made absolutely no difference to me.

I've found that reducing carbohydrate intake overall is the strategy that works best. Keeping to 3 square meals a day at near enough the same times, so that no snacks between meals are needed, helps too.

 

[catinahat]

I think the thing about protein and fats reducing the impact of carbs is only useful if there is something with highish carbs that you would like to eat without causing too much damage to your blood sugar levels.
I doubt that eating more carbs, no matter what you eat with them, is going to be an effective way to lower you Hba1c.
Using a meter to understand exactly how your food is impacting your blood sugar levels is really the only sensible way forward.
When you have collected enough of your own data it becomes obvious what you personally need to avoid. With the help of your meter you will become the foremost expert on your blood sugar

 

[AA11]

@AA11
The 'hack' that seems to help a lot of us is fasting, or time restricted eating.

Perhaps if you could share a couple of days worth of typical eating, exercise and food times with us, we could see if we might spot anything amiss?

Thank you for asking what I am doing! I eat two meals/day.
Breakfast (9 to 10 am). I eat either eggs, sardines or kippers with one side of veggies like mushrooms and tomatoes fried in coconut oil or a mix of kale and cabbage with a small amount of onion and red pepper fried in olive oil. This is served on one piece of Carbzone low carb bread to increase my fiber intake. Also I eat chia, poppy and sesame seeds to increase my dietary calcium as I am borderline osteoporotic. I mix this with plain Kefir to help gut bacteria but only a spoonful as its high in carbs.
Dinner ( 4 to 5 pm)- is usually a piece of meat (not lean), chicken or fish either pressure cooked or fried in butter or olive oil served with above ground veggies and occasionally celeriac. 'Dessert' is either a small amount (40 g) of frozen berries with greek yoghurt or an avocado with sauerkraut and a homemade unsweetened almond flour cacao chocolate chip and ginger cookie (or a square of seriously dark 100% chocolate melted with greek yoghurt).
Snacks- more frequently than not, I will have a snack between breakfast and dinner (but not after dinner) of hard cheese, pickles, olives, nuts or avocado/lettuce salad with homemade keto vinaigrette.
Since the poor blood results in January (after being on keto for 6 months) I made some changes to diet which are reflected in the food I described above. 1. I stopped eating Erythritol or any sweeteners so this has cut down considerably on keto almond flour treats. 2. Although sceptical about dietary solutions for shifting my lipid profile, I am using more extra virgin olive, avocado or coconut oil, eating more fish meals, eating more avocados. 3. Increased my fiber intake (also recommended for lowering cholesterol/LDLs). 4. I have also been more careful to drink sufficient water and try to aim for 2 liters per day.

Also since January, I track more closely what/how much I eat with a detailed spreadsheet custom made by my partner. It keeps a running total/ the ratio of carbs, fats and protein as the day progresses. I also track calcium and fiber intake. As far as exercise, I spend 30-40 minutes every morning before breakfast doing resistive weights, calisthenics and brief high intensity interval training which I have read is good for lower BG. I do a brisk walk at least a mile or two daily and go on longer 3-6 mile walks twice a week.
So my diet is a bit of juggle between keeping my carb intake low, getting enough calcium and lowering my lipid blood levels which some of the advice seems to be in the opposite direction of the keto diet. Open to any suggestions! Thank you for reading.