Defatizing with Herbalife by Kenny

[borofergie]

Kenny - you've lost 5kg in 7 days?!?

Sold to the fat man with the beard (that's me Patch, not you).

I'm joining the suicidal guinea pigs brigade as soon as the shakes arrive (tommorow I hope).

 

[Patch]

I'm joining the suicidal guinea pigs brigade as soon as the shakes arrive

Kewl.

 

[sugar2]

For this diet to work, is it essential to have a Southpark avatar??

Good luck Bonfergie!

 

[borofergie]

For this diet to work, is it essential to have a Southpark avatar??

Yes, it is probably something to do with the (lack off) emotional maturity of people stupid enough to do this. We're all going to be fighting over a Mackey avatar when we are finished (who is, as far as I can remember, the only skinny South Park character).

 

[Kenny]

BS after 7 days

Just woke up. BS is 108, down from 173. That's 6.0 down from 9.6 for youse all using old-fashioned metrics. Given the old dawn syndrome thingey, I would probably have had a lower reading if I'd wandered around for half an hour before testing. Is that cheating?

 

[bowell]

Better than just kg dropping off , your seeing your BG going down as well

Someone just doing the diet would only have the KG coming off to drive them forward
you have the drop in BG as well

Onwards un down down and away

Well done

Bob

 

[Patch]

My fasting BG is coming down too - just like in the study.

This is good.

Given the old dawn syndrome thingey, I would probably have had a lower reading if I'd wandered around for half an hour before testing. Is that cheating?

Yes! :wink:

 

[Kenny]

DAY 8

Firstly, let me say I'm enormously proud of myself, indeed smug, to have actually completed the first 7 days. Today has been another good day, decent-ish energy, the mildest of aches. Skipped breakfast and had the leftovers of yesterday's french onion soup for lunch. Snacked a very few olives and almonds. Health club - 20 minutes on the exercise bike, surprisingly strong and heart rate not at all high. I'll bet my blood pressure is down. For dinner I just had a herbalife shake, which is beginning to taste OK again, as well as red peppers, a few olives and a mushroom. Made the shake with water to keep calories down hehe. This afternoon I wandered around Tesco's and looked at the calorie content of all the chocolate bars. You know, I could actually replace one meal with a snickers and not go over my 600cal limit! But I managed to overcome the temptation to act on that.

I am seeking slimness, fitness, wellness and glory.

 

[Patch]

BIG well done for getting the first 7 days down, Kenny! I am hot on your heels! :wink:

I am seeking slimness, fitness, wellness and glory.

Glory is for the brave, my man!

Health club - 20 minutes on the exercise bike, surprisingly strong and heart rate not at all high.

:shock: Y'know what - I've noticed something similar. After a meal (also at other times), I can usually feel my heart beat really easily by putting my hand on my chest. Last night, I put my hand on my chest and was VERY surprised by the lack of a thumping heart beat.

This requires more investigation!

 

[NewdestinyX]

Yes I agree with you totally about the fact that I have to get to normal weight. 8 weeks is just the beginning. I think a low calorie diet with exercise (maybe 1000 calories) will become a permanent feature until I get to my target weight of 76Kg. Weighed in this morning at 108, so only 32Kg to go!!!

Regarding the results of the Newcastle study, the lead professor actually stated that he believed that the same results were achievable using any method of weight reduction, so I'm not too hung up on following the diet to a tee. If I don't get the results I'm hoping for, I'll just do it again and stick to the diet exactly, or I'll go the whole hog and do a zero calorie diet a.k.a. water fasting. Can't get a more drastic shock to the system than a water fast! I'll bet a 7 day water fast burns liver and pancreas fat even more effectively than the Newcastle study.

Yep -- that would clean ya out.. I didn't read the conclusion you say was in the study about any diet will do. I'll read again.. If that were the case then this particular diet wouldn't have been 'uniquely' effective to the study group as it seems to have been. There are MANY who super low carb that don't have clear from fat pancreases and livers. So I'm a little confused there. But we agree you are doing a GREAT thing for your future. No doubt!!

Herbalife/Optifast shakes are FULL of protein and for good reason. It's the ONLY WAY a liquid diet based on shakes actually can work and not have you 'starve to death'.

Is there a reason that this "Shake Diet" approach wouldn't work using Protein Powder (the kind body builders use)? I've hasd some before that was only 1.2g carbs per serving, compared with Optislims 21g per serving.

If it's the protein that stops th ebody going into starvation mode, could I do the shake diet with 1.2g per serving Protein Powder? (I'd expect to go right into ketosis on 3.6g of carbs per day!!!)

I don't see why not. I'm in a similar boat right now in that I'm an avid cyclist - but still about 3.5 stone from my perfect weight. I eat about 60-70g of carbs on exercise days but my staying power past 12 miles has been dim of late and the pain in my muscles lasts for 2 days.. Actually the 2nd day after is worse than the DAY after. So one of my gurus, a lady accross the street from me who cycles competitively said my problem was not enough carbs/protein before I cycle. That a PROTEIN bar 30 minutes before I go will get me through the journey with plenty of energy to spare and no muscle aches the next day. I tried it -- after she gave me a couple of hers and WOW WOW WOW -- she was right.. BOY I stopped at 13 miles but could have gone DOUBLE that with the way I felt.. I got home and my blood sugar was still a little elevated from the 35g of carbs.. But not much.. Burning FAT NEVER gave me anywhere near that energy.. So I'm willing to live with my bikeride burning less fat BUT are there PROTEIN bars with little to no 'carbs'???? Maybe a protein shake??

So yes I think your idea has merit, Patch.. And I'm looking for a similar fix to an 'energy' and 'lessening of muscle aches' paradigm I need for my cycling program. I should probably start a thread of my own and not hijack yours.

 

[NewdestinyX]

Re: DAY 8

Firstly, let me say I'm enormously proud of myself, indeed smug, to have actually completed the first 7 days. Today has been another good day, decent-ish energy, the mildest of aches. Skipped breakfast and had the leftovers of yesterday's french onion soup for lunch. Snacked a very few olives and almonds. Health club - 20 minutes on the exercise bike, surprisingly strong and heart rate not at all high. I'll bet my blood pressure is down. For dinner I just had a herbalife shake, which is beginning to taste OK again, as well as red peppers, a few olives and a mushroom. Made the shake with water to keep calories down hehe. This afternoon I wandered around Tesco's and looked at the calorie content of all the chocolate bars. You know, I could actually replace one meal with a snickers and not go over my 600cal limit! But I managed to overcome the temptation to act on that.

I am seeking slimness, fitness, wellness and glory.

Ooo, Kenny!! Firstly - GREAT WORK-mate!!!

Second -- Ghirardelli '72% chocolate' squares.. 4 calories each.. And 2 of them after a meal will actually ENABLE to reach your goals.. They've CHANGED MY LIFE!!! My sweet tooth has never faded even a BIT -- BUT -- moving to Dark chocolate utterly changed my life and now two of those squares after lunch and dinner are HEAVEN and make me feel like I'm NOT dieting at all. At first a 72% dark will taste bitter.. Try the 60% if the 72 doesn't work for you.. Lindt and Godiva make their own versions too but get the 'individually wrapped' squares -- and not the bar.. The BAR is too much of a temptation.. You dont' want a Snickers -- for obvious blood sugar spiking reasons. Every spike kills a little more of your kidneys off. Dark Chocolate doesn't move my meter at all.

 

[pianoman]

...I didn't read the conclusion you say was in the study about any diet will do. I'll read again.. If that were the case then this particular diet wouldn't have been 'uniquely' effective to the study group as it seems to have been. There are MANY who super low carb that don't have clear from fat pancreases and livers. So I'm a little confused there. ...

A) how do you know with any certainty that there are many on low-carb diets who have not significantly reduced or cleared the excess fat from their organs? Have they all had MRIs as in this study?
and
B) why is it even relevant? Are you seriously comparing this severely calorie-restricted diet to a well-planned low-carb diet?

---
edited to add...
At WebMD Dr Taylor is quoted as saying...

"We used the 600-calorie diet to test a hypothesis. What I can tell you definitively is that if people lose substantial weight by normal means, they will lose their diabetes," says study head Roy Taylor,MD, director of the Newcastle Magnetic Resonance Centre at Newcastle University in England.

Source... http://diabetes.webmd.com/news/20110624/very-low-calorie-diet-may-reverse-diabetes

That may be his personal opinion but I don't seen how he can state that based on the results of this study alone.

 

[NewdestinyX]

...I didn't read the conclusion you say was in the study about any diet will do. I'll read again.. If that were the case then this particular diet wouldn't have been 'uniquely' effective to the study group as it seems to have been. There are MANY who super low carb that don't have clear from fat pancreases and livers. So I'm a little confused there. ...

A) how do you know with any certainty that there are many on low-carb diets who have not significantly reduced or cleared the excess fat from their organs? Have they all had MRIs as in this study?
and
B) why is it even relevant? Are you seriously comparing this severely calorie-restricted diet to a well-planned low-carb diet?

You don't need the specific data to make a logical conclusion/correlation simply by the fact that not all low carbers have good A1c's/nearly normal monthly BG levels which means 'fat around organs' is at least 'one' of the possibilities for that to be so. Certainly there's no way to know for sure - but educated guesses are very possible that you can then base your own course of action upon. The point is - even well managed low carb diets aren't the smoking gun of diabetic remission potential. They're 'one tool' in the tool chest. And I've agreed with you on several occasions that this study is 'light' in many ways.

---
edited to add...
At WebMD Dr Taylor is quoted as saying...

"We used the 600-calorie diet to test a hypothesis. What I can tell you definitively is that if people lose substantial weight by normal means, they will lose their diabetes," says study head Roy Taylor,MD, director of the Newcastle Magnetic Resonance Centre at Newcastle University in England.

Source... http://diabetes.webmd.com/news/20110624/very-low-calorie-diet-may-reverse-diabetes

That may be his personal opinion but I don't seen how he can state that based on the results of this study alone.

Ok. There it is. And, yes, his statement is too overreaching. We agree.

 

[ebony321]

Firstly, it's hilarious you all have south park characters as your avatars!

Secondly, great with the weight loss and reduction in BG's..

Thirdly.. few points for this one..

Your not following the herbalife as you should, as you've found the shakes are 'orrible. So your eating alot of veg and soup. To me this just sounds like a very low-carb diet?

Secondly to monitor if you are infact 'curing' your diabetes, shouldn't you be testing more? not just fasting tests either, the whole point of 'curing' your diabetes is that you are dieting to enable your pancreas to 'de-fatize' so it may process carbs like someone without diabetes could. but if your not testing after meals and during the day you can't fully be aware of how the diet is affecting you? other than obvious signs like your legs and eyesight problems improving.

In no way am i trying to undermine what your doing, as i believe it is each to their own, i'm just curious that's all and it seems your aren't quite following what your original post outlined. Although you are getting great results.

To me the bottom line of a 'cure' would be..

If this 600Kal diet worked, you would de-fat (i can't keep looking to spell that word which i'm sure was made up? lol) your pancreas. It would them be re-vamped and work perfectly fine. (i'm clearly not a scientist)

If you then have indeed cured your diabetes. you could then eat what the heck you wanted, mars bars, bags of crisps. Homer sized sandwiches. because if you can't, i'm sorry you do still have diabetes, because your body still cant process carbs like someone without diabetes can.

Which i haven't heard of ANYONE be able to do that. That's why i'm so dubious about the whole thing.

I am reading yours and patch's posts with interest as i'm not one to rule things out, it's just if something doesn't seem justified or logical then to me it seems a bit ball of pants unless proven scientifically.

You are DEFINATELY getting results, i can see that, and im pleased for you, its always great to see anyone progress and acheive what they set out to do.

I'm just really wondering if your are 'curing' your diabetes or following a glorified very low-carb diet which will give the notion your cured, yet when you scoff that mars bar, your back to square one?

i'm also putting the word cured into '' because i can't physically write it as i simply do not believe diabetes can be cured.

But of course, if you think you can do it, go for it!! lead the way. With your south park avatars. You cure your diabetes and i will happily re-voke all my questions, ponderings and doubts!!! Heck, you do it and i'll get a south park avatar!

Although i won't be on a conquest to cure my diabetes as my pancreas is completely written off! :wink:

 

[pianoman]

You don't need the specific data to make a logical conclusion/correlation simply by the fact that not all low carbers have good A1c's/nearly normal monthly BG levels which means 'fat around organs' is at least 'one' of the possibilities for that to be so. Certainly there's no way to know for sure - but educated guesses are very possible that you can then base your own course of action upon. The point is - even well managed low carb diets aren't the smoking gun of diabetic remission potential. They're 'one tool' in the tool chest.

Except for the 'fact' that many (if not most) of those I converse with on these forums who are using a low-carb approach (including myself and dare I suggest you as well?) are doing so precisely because it has allowed them to manage improved (near normal) average monthly BGs and at least Pre-Diabetic A1c levels -- often with much reduced or no medication -- comparable to this study's results. By your own logic this suggests that they have indeed successfully reduced or eliminated excess fat from the affected organs.

If we take remission of Type 2 Diabetes to mean almost complete absence of abnormal BG levels with minimal or no medication then I'd put my hand up and say I fit that description... as do many others that I converse with.

BUT again, this is not the topic of this thread which I read as devoted to a severely calorie-restricted approach NOT a low-carb approach.

 

[borofergie]

are there PROTEIN bars with little to no 'carbs'???? Maybe a protein shake??

I live off these (7g carb per bar):
http://www.powerbar.co.uk/Pages/Product ... ar_base%29

Most commercially available Protein Shakes are <4g carb per serving.

 

[borofergie]

So my Optislim shakes are here, and I've had my last supper, and I'm joining the suicidal guinea pigs tomorrow.

I'm coming at this from a different place than Patch and Kenny. In the four months since diagnosis I've managed to get my HbA1C down from 10.2%, to 5.2% by low-carbing (30-40g a day) and a couple of Metformin every day (when I remember to take them). My BG is almost always in the 4.5 to 7 mmol/l range.

So I don't need to do this. (For me) Low-Carb is a good enough solution (although YMMV etc, etc). The diet is restrictive and I miss chocolate hobnobs, but I think that I could keep it up for the next 40 years or so, if it means that I won't suffer any complications.

Here is my thinking:

1) I've managed to drop my BMI from 39 to 34 in the past 15 months. I'd quite like to take a short cut to 30 or below. When I've finished I know I can go back to low-carb and keep it off.

2) I can see my BG control improve as my weight decreases. I'd like to turn my 6s into 5s. I'm worried about 20g of carb per shake, but I'm prepared to take a few 8s for a few weeks, if it helps my long term control.

3) Getting rid of fat in my liver seems like a good idea.

4) I love a challenge.

One problem that I need to solve is that, since I caught the old Diabetes, I've slowly worked myself up from not being able to run, to running 12 miles a week. I don't want to give this up and so I might have to consume some more calories to account for this. I'm going to start on the 600 calorie version and see how it goes though...

 

[Kenny]

I've had my last supper.

Welcome, friend!

 

[Kenny]

"We used the 600-calorie diet to test a hypothesis. What I can tell you definitively is that if people lose substantial weight by normal means, they will lose their diabetes," says study head Roy Taylor,MD, director of the Newcastle Magnetic Resonance Centre at Newcastle University in England.

Source... http://diabetes.webmd.com/news/20110624/very-low-calorie-diet-may-reverse-diabetes

Ok. There it is. And, yes, his statement is too overreaching. We agree.

Yes, I agree too. In the report, he actually states clearly that they assume it is the 'sudden' calorie restriction which defatizes the pancreas and liver, leading to restoration of insulin secretion.

 

[Kenny]

Your not following the herbalife as you should, as you've found the shakes are 'orrible. So your eating alot of veg and soup. To me this just sounds like a very low-carb diet?

Yes, I'm not following herbalife strictly. I don't care. I'm in charge. In any case, the original study used optifast not herbalife. The main thing is that I am restricting my calorie intake to 600-800 cals per day.

Secondly to monitor if you are infact 'curing' your diabetes, shouldn't you be testing more?

Not at this stage, no. The only test that really matters is the oral glucose tolerance test that I will take when I reach a BMI of 24. Complete weight loss will mean complete defatizing of my pancreas, thereby restoration of insulin secretion, and restoration of peripheral insulin sensitivity.

If you then have indeed cured your diabetes. you could then eat what the heck you wanted, mars bars, bags of crisps. Homer sized sandwiches. because if you can't, i'm sorry you do still have diabetes, because your body still cant process carbs like someone without diabetes can.

Which i haven't heard of ANYONE be able to do that.

Read the success stories thread. A girl with terrible diabetes went on some radical diet and ended up being turned away by a clinic when she asked for follow up care. The clinic said "You don't have diabetes". Others say that they still take care of what they eat but that if they pig out occasionally, like at Christmas, their blood sugar readings remain non-diabetic.

Of course, if I were cured and then started to eat the way I did before I became diabetic, then naturally diabetes would recur. In my case I think the damage was done when I was living as a bachelor in France. Half a baguette filled with cheese, onion, tomato and mayonnaise with a big bag of crisps and half a liter of coca cola. Hyperinsulinemia, overeating, obesity, fatty liver, hey presto diabetes.

i simply do not believe diabetes can be cured.

Oh ye of little faith! I was reading last night that some doctors view diabetes as a natural condition of the body as a defense mechanism for when there is too much lipid content in muscle cells; in other words, diabetes is not even a 'disease' or 'disorder'. Apparently excess lipids in cells are difficult to shift. Perhaps the total cure is a combination of weight loss and the time (3 years?) necessary for the cells to die and be replaced.

With your south park avatars. You cure your diabetes and i will happily re-voke all my questions, ponderings and doubts!!! Heck, you do it and i'll get a south park avatar!

If you read the study carefully, very carefully, I mean in the small print, you will see that having a south park avatar is an essential part of the protocol. Come join us, friend.