Defatizing with Herbalife by Kenny

[NewdestinyX]

Except for the 'fact' that many (if not most) of those I converse with on these forums who are using a low-carb approach (including myself and dare I suggest you as well?) are doing so precisely because it has allowed them to manage improved (near normal) average monthly BGs and at least Pre-Diabetic A1c levels -- often with much reduced or no medication -- comparable to this study's results. By your own logic this suggests that they have indeed successfully reduced or eliminated excess fat from the affected organs.

Not exactly, Pianoman. I agree we are way healthier than where we started - lowER carb to very lo carb diets predominantly work by simply lowering 'intake' of a whole macronutirent that turns directly into glucose in the blood - namely carbs.. So it's a no-brainer that low carbing can control BG levels.. The fact that BG numbers come into line doesn't prove anything except you've severly limited the main macronutrient (as an impetus) that elevates BG levels. But you have to keep doing that the rest of your life to keep numbers in line. That's no cure of any kind. It's a means to an end and a powerful one but only a controller of 'symptoms' methodology. The moment any of you increase your carbs -- numbers go right back up almost instantly as many low carbers have noted - the well known 'no-no foods' that will always spike.

What fat you lose when low carbing is from around your belly and though that reduces IR and lets the pancreas work more efficiently - which again helps the numbers game - it is not effective to 'cure' PP spikes after carby foods intake and not usually effective to alleviate most am fasting problems. In short - even fat loss from the adipose stores (the fat we carry) around the belly is often ineffective to cure poor First Phase insulin response - a chief attribute of T2D.

What this study claims and proved in a short term was to eliminate, SPECIFICALLY, liver and pancreas fat deposits - which is a NEW level of 'cure' in the sense that EVEN BEFORE your belly fat gets out of the way and reduces additional IR -- this 'de-fat-izing' of those two organs essentially does what the sulfonylureas attempt to do: MAKE the pancreas work more efficiently, nearly back to normal, improving First Phase Insulin response - so there's MORE insulin available to take care of ANY LEVEL of CARBS you eat - thus prevent spiking and improve fasting levels am and later in the day -(none of which am I claiming that this study absolutely accomplished -- rather I'm just making the point as to how comparing what low carbing does to what this study did is an 'apples and oranges' comparison).

What I described there is FUNDAMENTALLY a different level of 'diabetic control' than mere low carbing. It would, if effective, allow you to eat a more 'normal' level of carbs, that of a non-D person and not experience hyperglycemia as a symptom. Again that's a fundamentally DIFFERENT level of improvement than low carb could ever achieve. That's why it's so intriguing to me. Whether it WORKS long term is an entirely different matter. Low carbers are expert 'controllers/reducers of hyperglycemia' by severly limiting the main macronutrient that creates blood glucose level rises. This 600kcal 8 week diet attemtps to 'heal' the ALLEGED 'root' cause of the hyperglycemia (namely: fat around pancreas/liver) - and NOT just control the symptom -which is what low carb is. Low carbing to diabetes is akin to carrying an oxygen tank for reduced heart function. In both cases the pancreas and heart are no closer to working like they used to.

 

[NewdestinyX]

Yes, I'm not following herbalife strictly. I don't care. I'm in charge. In any case, the original study used optifast not herbalife. The main thing is that I am restricting my calorie intake to 600-800 cals per day.

But Kenny - not all calories are created equal. WHAT the calories ARE from- matters in this diet as I read it.

Secondly to monitor if you are infact 'curing' your diabetes, shouldn't you be testing more?

Not at this stage, no. The only test that really matters is the oral glucose tolerance test that I will take when I reach a BMI of 24. Complete weight loss will mean complete defatizing of my pancreas, thereby restoration of insulin secretion, and restoration of peripheral insulin sensitivity.

Hopefully, Kenny. Testing now DOES matter. Don't fool yourself. Though I think you'd see some pretty great numbers. I agree an OGTT will tell an important story at the end.

Read the success stories thread. A girl with terrible diabetes went on some radical diet and ended up being turned away by a clinic when she asked for follow up care. The clinic said "You don't have diabetes". Others say that they still take care of what they eat but that if they pig out occasionally, like at Christmas, their blood sugar readings remain non-diabetic.

I've known several people like this from these fora - but they were in the 80% group of people who were obese at dx. The 'skinny diabetics' can't get 'cured' by this diet in my estimation because their communication system between liver and pancreas is too far broken which I believe is really the 'heart' of T2D that unites fat and skinny T2's alike. It explains why skinny T2's are possible. If fat were the smoking gun in T2 - then all fat people would have diabetes. Clearly that's not the main cause of T2. Only 20% of the worlds obese people have or will ever get T2. There's a genetic piece here.

Of course, if I were cured and then started to eat the way I did before I became diabetic, then naturally diabetes would recur.

And that means that this diet will never really provide a real CURE - which would mean you'd be able to be any weight, eat anything you want and not have T2 symptoms anymore.

In my case I think the damage was done when I was living as a bachelor in France. Half a baguette filled with cheese, onion, tomato and mayonnaise with a big bag of crisps and half a liter of coca cola. Hyperinsulinemia, overeating, obesity, fatty liver, hey presto diabetes.

You helped your condition along WITH that eating lifestyle - but you didn't CAUSE it.

i simply do not believe diabetes can be cured.

Oh ye of little faith! I was reading last night that some doctors view diabetes as a natural condition of the body as a defense mechanism for when there is too much lipid content in muscle cells; in other words, diabetes is not even a 'disease' or 'disorder'. Apparently excess lipids in cells are difficult to shift. Perhaps the total cure is a combination of weight loss and the time (3 years?) necessary for the cells to die and be replaced.

That's an oversimplification and again doesn't offer anything to understand skinny T2s. 20% of T2s are NOT overweight and never were. That blows out of the water ANY mentality that makes being fat the MAIN CAUSE of T2. It just isn't. It's a COMPLICATOR of a disease already triggered by something other than an overeating lifestyle.

Where I believe the 80% group (obese at dx) can go - and achieve as several have -- it to get to a place where WHAT PANCREAS you have LEFT -- can keep up with the NEED of your body. When you clear all the fat out of the way -- no complicating factors exist anymore for the 80% group of T2s. So a weakened pancreas can FUNCTION nearly normally again. Science tells us that pancreatic beta cell REGROWTH happens VERY slowly and likely NEVER returns to normal. ANd by the time you fail an OGTT up to 60% of your beta cell mass is destroyed.. That's a near impossible chasm to overcome.

But as long as you're satisfied to only cheat BIG TIME on birthdays and holidays -- and then moderate the rest of your life -- I think one can be 'functionally cured'. I call this - "remission" of the T2 by lifestyle change. But this diet offers a new variable we haven't had before. Let's see what it brings - Kenny and Patch. I'm SOOO with you. But I have a 'level head' about the expected results.

 

[Kenny]

DAY 9

Oooops! Big ooooops!

A certain emotional disturbance knocked me off the wagon. In fact, I kind of plunged head first off the wagon. Went to McDonald's where a big mac went down very nicely. Then off to Tesco's for a toblerone. Then two baked potatoes with butter, sweetcorn, tuna and mayonnaise. And a bowl of breakfast cereal.

This AM fasting BS unsurprisingly 140. Yesterday was 104... dammit!

Today I've been good so far. Just a herbalife shake, no milk. 90 calories. Phew!

 

[daisy1]

So sorry that happened, Kenny, after all your hard work. Does that mean you've got to start all over again? What damage will your binge have done to your fat loss? Is it possible to estimate what happened to your body yesterday as a result of your Mac etc?

 

[catherinecherub]

Re: DAY 9

Oooops! Big ooooops!

A certain emotional disturbance knocked me off the wagon. In fact, I kind of plunged head first off the wagon. Went to McDonald's where a big mac went down very nicely. Then off to Tesco's for a toblerone. Then two baked potatoes with butter, sweetcorn, tuna and mayonnaise. And a bowl of breakfast cereal.

This AM fasting BS unsurprisingly 140. Yesterday was 104... dammit!

Today I've been good so far. Just a herbalife shake, no milk. 90 calories. Phew!

Oh Kenny.

Have you ever thought that you have an eating disorder? I know this is usually anorexic or bulimia types but you overeat when you are emotional. It is not uncommon and you can be helped with psychological input, something like CBT. This therapy helps with weight loss and relapse prevention. The diet industry makes millions because the causes of overeating are not resolved.

Now that you are having to start again, have you considered if this six week course will resolve all your problems? Do you have a plan to follow after the six weeks? You need something in place to stop the food fix for your emotions.

I wish you well Kenny.

 

[viviennem]

As binges go, Kenny, that was a 5-star! I hope you enjoyed it at the time, or was it a self-destruct? I'm good at those! :shock:

Onwards and upwards - we're all right behind you and really hoping you succeed!

Viv 8)

 

[Kenny]

DAY 10

Wife and baby came home today after an absence of six weeks. SOOOOO good to see them. So I had a meal with them, of course. Today I probably put away 1500 calories or some such. Tomorrow I'm back on the wagon.

 

[NewdestinyX]

To those that have challenged Kenny -- we all need to be more careful we don't punch a man when he's down. Though I may agree with the 'data' you presented to him -- there's something to be said for 'timing'. He's not really 'starting over' because of the one binge or even the 1500 calorie day with the family. This diet doesn't work that way - nor does any. What I will attest to, that I fought for years, was this notion that a 'lifeSTYLE change' is the only lasting thing. This diet has the great potential pitfall of invoking a 'fad' mentality -- quick fix which is simply unsustainable. Even the test subjects were 'locked in a room' together for 8 weeks completely controlled. No potential for off the wagon moments. So most of us will 'fail' this particular diet because we have no 'support system'.

In the end I've lost 29.5Kg in 2 years time. It was ALL gradual.. Plateaus - stepping down. The entire journey I've learned to eat moderately -- which I think is even harder than the 'all or nothing approaches' of ultra low carb. Used very little insulin the whole way. But the result is that I've never regained a Kg of the weight and most importantly the WHOLE WAY I approach food is different now. And for me it's a personal victory that I haven't had to use the very restrictive methodology of the <50g of carbs a day folks. You can achieve the exact same BG level control/A1c results as they do without living that horribly depriving eating style (my opinion that it's "depriving").

So Kenny - you've started a GREAT 'gradual' journey. But I think it would be more 'emotionally healthy' for you to not believe in this notion of 'a cure'. It doesn't exist - not in this diet and not any time soon. You CAN however believe in 'remission'.. As the less fat around liver and pancreas will help then to work better for you and the more weight you lose the less muscle-insulin resistant you will become and the numbers should go back to normal long about the time you reach your perfect BMI.. But most of these weight plans for guys as big as we are/were take 1-5 years to accomplish. It took us even LONGER than that to get this big. So it takes a LONG time to get rid of it. Make sure you take up a doable sport for you. For any of us cycling is a very easy one on the body frame and lots of fun. I don't if the weather in the UK (if that's where you live) is a nice as the mid Atlantic region of the US in the spring, summer and fall but it's HEALING for me. And has been integral to my success.

So hang in there, Kenny..

And though I'm no moderator -- can I 'plead' with people to not jump in with "poor baby, your problem's in your head", kinds of comments so quickly after an 'off the wagon' moment? Though the 'info' you share is potentially accurate and your giving it with the best of intentions -- the timing is poor in my estimation.. When I read the last few comments I just put my head in my hands thinking --- "O please......."

 

[catherinecherub]

To those that have challenged Kenny -- we all need to be more careful we don't punch a man when he's down. Though I may agree with the 'data' you presented to him -- there's something to be said for 'timing'. He's not really 'starting over' because of the one binge or even the 1500 calorie day with the family. This diet doesn't work that way - nor does any. What I will attest to, that I fought for years, was this notion that a 'lifeSTYLE change' is the only lasting thing. This diet has the great potential pitfall of invoking a 'fad' mentality -- quick fix which is simply unsustainable. Even the test subjects were 'locked in a room' together for 8 weeks completely controlled. No potential for off the wagon moments. So most of us will 'fail' this particular diet because we have no 'support system'.

In the end I've lost 29.5Kg in 2 years time. It was ALL gradual.. Plateaus - stepping down. The entire journey I've learned to eat moderately -- which I think is even harder than the 'all or nothing approaches' of ultra low carb. Used very little insulin the whole way. But the result is that I've never regained a Kg of the weight and most importantly the WHOLE WAY I approach food is different now. And for me it's a personal victory that I haven't had to use the very restrictive methodology of the <50g of carbs a day folks. You can achieve the exact same BG level control/A1c results as they do without living that horribly depriving eating style (my opinion that it's "depriving").

So Kenny - you've started a GREAT 'gradual' journey. But I think it would be more 'emotionally healthy' for you to not believe in this notion of 'a cure'. It doesn't exist - not in this diet and not any time soon. You CAN however believe in 'remission'.. As the less fat around liver and pancreas will help then to work better for you and the more weight you lose the less muscle-insulin resistant you will become and the numbers should go back to normal long about the time you reach your perfect BMI.. But most of these weight plans for guys as big as we are/were take 1-5 years to accomplish. It took us even LONGER than that to get this big. So it takes a LONG time to get rid of it. Make sure you take up a doable sport for you. For any of us cycling is a very easy one on the body frame and lots of fun. I don't if the weather in the UK (if that's where you live) is a nice as the mid Atlantic region of the US in the spring, summer and fall but it's HEALING for me. And has been integral to my success.

So hang in there, Kenny..

And though I'm no moderator -- can I 'plead' with people to not jump in with "poor baby, your problem's in your head", kinds of comments so quickly after an 'off the wagon' moment? Though the 'info' you share is potentially accurate and your giving it with the best of intentions -- the timing is poor in my estimation.. When I read the last few comments I just put my head in my hands thinking --- "O please......."

No, you are not a Moderator.

You do not have the right to tell people what they should and shouldn't post, even though you are pleading with them.. Everyone's opinions are valid here on this forum as long as they do not contravene the rules and regulations.

 

[pianoman]

... This diet has the great potential pitfall of invoking a 'fad' mentality -- quick fix which is simply unsustainable. Even the test subjects were 'locked in a room' together for 8 weeks completely controlled. No potential for off the wagon moments. So most of us will 'fail' this particular diet because we have no 'support system'. ...

In the actual study it says

Ongoing support and encouragement was provided by means of regular telephone contact

... you might want to read it again and climb down off your high-horse. The study lead is also on record as warning that this approach should only be undertaken with medical supervision.

http://www.diabetologia-journal.org/Lim.pdf

 

[benedict]

If anyone wishes to question whether a post is acceptable, please just use the 'report' functionality. Triangle icon with an exclamation mark.

Otherwise threads go off topic like this which doesn't make for such good reading.

 

[Kenny]

No, you are not a Moderator.

No, but he should be. He has something that is a pathetic failing in most moderators... EMPATHY.

You do not have the right to tell people what they should and shouldn't post, even though you are pleading with them..

He's not telling people, he's asking them. He's being supportive of ME on MY thread. And yes, he DOES have the right to do that. It's called freedom of expression.

 

[Kenny]

As binges go, Kenny, that was a 5-star! I hope you enjoyed it at the time, or was it a self-destruct? I'm good at those! :shock:

It was a self-destruct. I just learned a good friend of mine is dying of cancer. I'm visiting him tomorrow. Unfortunately, today and tomorrow will be lost days.

Onwards and upwards - we're all right behind you and really hoping you succeed!

Thanks viv! I'm not giving up... but I'm in pause mode right now.

 

[Kenny]

If anyone wishes to question whether a post is acceptable, please just use the 'report' functionality.

That's overkill. If people would kindly avoid their high-horse, we'll all be fine.

 

[Kenny]

So sorry that happened, Kenny, after all your hard work. Does that mean you've got to start all over again? What damage will your binge have done to your fat loss? Is it possible to estimate what happened to your body yesterday as a result of your Mac etc?

Well much of the fat loss is permanent. I would have to go into calorie surplus again for a couple of weeks to get back to where I started, and I don't think that's going to happen. I go back to the diet and the fat loss continues, though I might have to go through 'induction phase' again with its aches and pains. I'm still 4 kilograms lighter than when I started.

 

[Kenny]

Re: DAY 9

Have you ever thought that you have an eating disorder? ... It is not uncommon and you can be helped with psychological input, something like CBT.

Thanks cherub, but I have virtually zero confidence in psychology, and I certainly have no money to pay for it. In terms of emotional support, I have very little unfortunately. I live in South Korea so my pool of friends here is very very small indeed. This forum is my only help.

 

[benedict]

Hi Kenny, I'm just doing my best to moderate this forum.

I felt a public post here was best to stop things from going too wayward here. This comes from a number of months' experience of doing this job.

Benedict

 

[pianoman]

In the end I've lost 29.5Kg in 2 years time. It was ALL gradual.. Plateaus - stepping down. The entire journey I've learned to eat moderately -- which I think is even harder than the 'all or nothing approaches' of ultra low carb. Used very little insulin the whole way. But the result is that I've never regained a Kg of the weight and most importantly the WHOLE WAY I approach food is different now. And for me it's a personal victory that I haven't had to use the very restrictive methodology of the <50g of carbs a day folks. You can achieve the exact same BG level control/A1c results as they do without living that horribly depriving eating style (my opinion that it's "depriving").

Are you saying that your approach of "stepping down" or 'eating moderately' is even harder than an 'all or nothing' approach AKA cold turkey? If that is the case how do you rate this short-term 600 calorie restricted diet approach... logically that would be even less hard for you?

I'm confused by your avid support for this very restrictive 600 calorie diet while you continually bash a much more moderate (by comparison) "ultra low carb" diet...whatever the heck that actually means -- I've yet to see the term defined or even used by anyone except yourself.

It's also interesting that despite being told on many occasions that I and many others who choose a low-carb diet do not find it in the least depriving or restrictive you continue to harp on that point... maybe it is all in your own mind?

 

[NewdestinyX]

... This diet has the great potential pitfall of invoking a 'fad' mentality -- quick fix which is simply unsustainable. Even the test subjects were 'locked in a room' together for 8 weeks completely controlled. No potential for off the wagon moments. So most of us will 'fail' this particular diet because we have no 'support system'. ...

In the actual study it says

Ongoing support and encouragement was provided by means of regular telephone contact

... you might want to read it again and climb down off your high-horse. The study lead is also on record as warning that this approach should only be undertaken with medical supervision.

Pianoman - it seems you've adopted a 'contrarian only' position with just my posts. You've followed me in various threads and only seem to speak up to 'me'. And whether or not I support the side of the argument you're on or not - you just adopt the 'other side' of any argument when you respond to me. It's interesting. If I didn't know better I would conclude you're from other places I've visited, hiding here under a new name and trying to slander my input. But I'll try and keep an open mind. It would if I saw you actually take issues with other people and/or support them and if your 'positions' were actually 'consistent'. I'm not on any high horse. And I never use jusdgemental language like that with you or anyone. Do you KNOW me? How can you be so contrarian upon just meeting me here? As to the study -- it is clear. And you don't like this study's conclusions for whatever reasons. I find it intriguing but INCOMPLETE in scope. There is no inconsistency of any kind in my position as I've said now 4 times to you in different threads.

Are you saying that your approach of "stepping down" or 'eating moderately' is even harder than an 'all or nothing' approach AKA cold turkey?

Absolutely - in the long run. Anyone can 'hunker down' for 4 weeks and do anything. But still eating foods you've always loved that are carby and eating them in 'moderation' - much less than you used to - requires a greater level of will power. To simply move to foods with 'no' glucose in them for the vast majority of your diet is easier in my view. I know people who eat low carb and still stuff themselves to full and almost regurgitating. That is still an undisciplined way to eat. But your BG levels are controlled. I can control my BG levels with portion sizing, insulin and still eat any 'food' I want and maintain my weight or lose - simply by changing portion. That takes a certain discipline but the 'range' of flavors and textures not to mention better energy sources for exercising are much vaster not super lo carbing.

If that is the case how do you rate this short-term 600 calorie restricted diet approach... logically that would be even less hard for you?

Again in your attempt to be contrarian you don't even make a logical argument there, Pianoman. You've lost me.

I'm confused by your avid support for this very restrictive 600 calorie diet

Where? Cite the posts and verbiage where I ardently support it? Never 1. I find it 'intriguing'. We've settled this rabbit trail in 2-3 other posts. I'm NOT an 'ARDENT" supporter of it. I AM an ARDENT supporter of Kenny and Patch DOING it and seeing what helps them. Without all the judgement and patronising I've watched happen at their expense from a 'few'.

while you continually bash a much more moderate (by comparison) "ultra low carb" diet...whatever the heck that actually means -- I've yet to see the term defined or even used by anyone except yourself.

I don't 'bash' anything. I share what's worked better for me. And because I've achieved the same results as people who very lo carb (less than <50g a day) I think people hate that that's possible because they restrict themselves so much more than I do. Lo carb is 'by definition' "restrictive", Pianoman, no matter how you slice it. Whether someone can 'learn' to 'not miss' certain foods isn't surprising. But it's also not necessary to stay healthy as a diabetic.

It's also interesting that despite being told on many occasions that I and many others who choose a low-carb diet do not find it in the least depriving or restrictive you continue to harp on that point... maybe it is all in your own mind?

Oh I assure you it's not in my mind. Again, by definition, it IS 'restrictive'. Whether or not you feel 'deprived' I can't speak to and never have. Many people report NOT being able to live on it and thrive. Those comments are not 'in my head'. I'm glad it works for you. But I want people to hear the other side always - which is BY NO MEANS is it necessary to stay healthy as T2. It's you 'only choice' IF you don't want to inject insulin which is by far, along with feeling it more 'pure' to reject medications, the main reason people low carb.

As to the standards for 'low carb' versus 'ultra/extreme/super/very lo carb' -- it's simple. Anything that is ketosis producing in the human body is considered dangerous long term to the human body by the vast majority of medical practitioners in the world. Ketosis will start anywhere between <50-<60g of carbs a day. Under that threshold is 'very/extreme/super Low carbing'.

But this isn't the thread for this discussion.

 

[Kenny]

Sing us a song, you're the pianoman... sing us a song tonight...
'coz we're all in the mood for a melody... and you've got us feelin' alright.