Have you cured or reversed type 2

[bigdunk]

i've just completed a 10k trail run in grasmere cumbria

I'd rather do some trout fishing on Esthwaite Water and then go to the Red Lion in Hawkshead. The trouble with Grasmere is its hard to resist Gingerbread:

It's as spikey as Kendal Mintcake.

hi think you may have missed the point lol but can understand where your coming from moving onto the cumbrian run next my first and probs only half marathon

 

[Southport GP]

Good Question -I have known five or six diabetics whose HbAic has normalised within a few months of starting the low carb diet What has also happened is a great improvement in liver function and blood pressure- I expect this would reverse if they went back to their old diet -however while they are on the diet it is AS IF they were free of diabetes and they feel very well too .In the end it seems as if there is a choice : diet or enjoy carbs and face the likely consequences .

 

[Yorksman]

Writing in Medscape, Roy Taylor suggests the following:

"Why would one person have normal β-cell function with a pancreas fat level of, for example, 8%, whereas another has type 2 diabetes with a pancreas fat level of 5%? There must be varying degrees of liposusceptibility of the metabolic organs ..."

 

[viviennem]

Good Question -I have known five or six diabetics whose HbAic has normalised within a few months of starting the low carb diet What has also happened is a great improvement in liver function and blood pressure- I expect this would reverse if they went back to their old diet -however while they are on the diet it is AS IF they were free of diabetes and they feel very well too .In the end it seems as if there is a choice : diet or enjoy carbs and face the likely consequences .

I'm a good example of that - I was diagnosed in 2010, early, (my GP was watching me like a hawk - I think he was running a book on me!) with an HbA1c of 6.5. I went straight back on to Atkins Induction, which I know from past experience suits me and works for me. 3 months later the HbA1c was 5.6, and it's never been above that since. My lowest was 5.2; 5.3 this April. I'm aiming for the 4% club.

My blood pressure is fine, as is my liver function - how I don't know, 'cos I like my red wine :wink: . My lipid profile is great, too - Total:HDL ratio is 3.5:1. I don't take statins. My diet is about 75% fat, 8% carb, and the rest protein.

I've lost about 60lbs so far; slower than the last time I did Atkins, but this time I'm not worried about weight loss. As long as my BGs are where I want them - in the non-diabetic range - I'm happy.


Viv 8)


Viv 8)

 

[Yorksman]

my GP was watching me like a hawk - I think he was running a book on me!

Let's hope he's not tempted to nobble the horse so to speak!

 

[Anonymous]

Good Question -I have known five or six diabetics whose HbAic has normalised within a few months of starting the low carb diet What has also happened is a great improvement in liver function and blood pressure- I expect this would reverse if they went back to their old diet -however while they are on the diet it is AS IF they were free of diabetes and they feel very well too .In the end it seems as if there is a choice : diet or enjoy carbs and face the likely consequences .

I'm a good example of that - I was diagnosed in 2010, early, (my GP was watching me like a hawk - I think he was running a book on me!) with an HbA1c of 6.5. I went straight back on to Atkins Induction, which I know from past experience suits me and works for me. 3 months later the HbA1c was 5.6, and it's never been above that since. My lowest was 5.2; 5.3 this April. I'm aiming for the 4% club.

My blood pressure is fine, as is my liver function - how I don't know, 'cos I like my red wine :wink: . My lipid profile is great, too - Total:HDL ratio is 3.5:1. I don't take statins. My diet is about 75% fat, 8% carb, and the rest protein.

I've lost about 60lbs so far; slower than the last time I did Atkins, but this time I'm not worried about weight loss. As long as my BGs are where I want them - in the non-diabetic range - I'm happy.


Viv 8)


Viv 8)

Hi Viv, do you know what the GP means by "however while they are on the diet it is AS IF they were free of diabetes". Not sure why AS IF is capitalised. Would that mean that you might be able to come off your Metformin at some point?

 

[viviennem]

I would suggest that he posted "AS IF" because he, like me, believes that Type 2 diabetes is never "cured". As long as I eat low carb I'm fully controlled. If I slip in the extra carbs (as I did for a couple of months after Christmas) slowly but surely the BGs go up, and the weight goes on. If I went back to my previous way of eating - lots of pasta and rice and bread and jacket potatoes - my BGs would be back in the diabetic range.

Though now I have lost the weight (same again still to go :roll: ) I can tolerate a few more carbs as far as the blood glucose is concerned.

As for Metformin - I like my Metformin! It helps suppress my appetite, is known to give some protection against strokes and CVD (I won't take statins), and recent research is suggesting that it gives some protection from some types of cancer. I'm well settled on it and don't have any side-effects. They won't take it off me without a struggle :lol: .

I don't think the runner was "nobbled", Yorksman - though is it a coincidence that I'd taken statins for about 18 months previously, ending in the year before? Actually, I was diagnosed immediately after my 24th house move - and boy, was I stressed! :shock:

The diagnosis was a wake-up call - I'm only 3/4 the woman I used to be! :lol:

Viv 8)

 

[PM0rris]

Good Question -I have known five or six diabetics whose HbAic has normalised within a few months of starting the low carb diet What has also happened is a great improvement in liver function and blood pressure- I expect this would reverse if they went back to their old diet -however while they are on the diet it is AS IF they were free of diabetes and they feel very well too .In the end it seems as if there is a choice : diet or enjoy carbs and face the likely consequences .

Being in Southport I would very much like to make contact with Southport GP as I am fairly confused as to what I should do to manage my type 2. I have gone through phases of avoiding pasta, bread etc then reversing and eating pasta etc with veg fish and meat. I avoid bananas as they work like a sleeping pill on me.

 

[viviennem]

Have you introduced yourself on the "Greetings and Introductions" section of the Forum, PMorris? Daisy1, the moderator for that area, posts some introductory advice for all newbies, but it may take her longer to notice you if you don't "sign in", so to speak.

You've come to the right place for help and support, so welcome! The first question I would ask is, do you have a blood glucose meter and test strips? It's a vital piece of equipment for ALL diabetics, so do your best to get one, and prescriptions for the strips, from your GP. It will help you find out which foods (carbohydrate of all kinds) send your blood glucose too high. Once you've learned what you can and can't eat, you can tailor your diet and life-style accordingley.

Ask any questions you want on here - we were all newbies once, and we understand what you're going through.

Viv 8)

 

[Disneyfan]

Coincidentally I live in Southport, but am not one of the SouthportGPs patients. However my GP used the words reversed my diabetes today. She actually said 'you're not diabetic' saying I'd done with lowcarb what others achieve with gastric band surgery. I was on 3 x 500mg Met for 9 months, but the last 3 I've been controlling by diet alone and my hba1c last week was 31. I've lost almost 6 stone in the last year and am now almost at an acceptable weight (just over 10 stone now). I can't however ever feel I've reversed or cured myself, I'm just managing to manage it. The best news ever though is that my retinopathy screening came back normal (last years said early damage) - my mum has suffered serious damage to her eyesight and I don't want to have to go through what she has done if I can avoid it at all.

 

[Kathyabdul2809]

Hello everyone,
Life is full of ironies - I am married to a retired consultant diabetologist/endocrinologist, so somehow thought I was immune to type 2 ! What a smack in the face then to be diagnosed 2 years ago, with a random blood sugar of 22, high cholesterol, high blood pressure and an acquired BMI of 31- my responsibility I admit. While waiting for all the appointments this diagnosis attracts, I embarked on a weight loss/increased exercise regime. The biggest eye opener for me was the weight of an average chicken breast for example, I was probably eating twice the daily recommended protein portion, together with chocolate, cakes, biscuits, sweets etc. So, it wasn't easy by any means, and tears were shed, but I have lost 5 stones in weight, and I walk 5 miles a day, every day having acquired a puppy who won't take no for an answer. At my last review with my GP, we had an animated discussion about whether I could say I did not have diabetes and could come off the register. He said he could only say that I was a very well controlled diabetic, but my risk for diabetes remains and will return if I return to my old lifestyle. So yes - I believe I have halted my diabetes, but it looms in the background as a warning not to slip down that slippery slope again. Good luck - by the way, the best advice I had from the diabetes nurse at the surgery was that it was my diabetes, my responsibility and I should always be pro-active in its management. Tough love but the wake up call I needed. cheers !

 

[trotskyite]

"A clear distinction must be made between weight loss that improves glucose control but leaves blood glucose levels abnormal and weight loss of sufficient degree to normalize pancreatic function" Prof Roy Taylor
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/4/1047.long#sec-9

This is the part a lot of people do not understand the difference between good glycemic control (control) and normalisation of pancreatic function (reversal).


cinderella : Unfortunately a percentage of people are misdiagnosed with type 2 when in fact they have other types of diabetes. Damage to the pancreas by viral attack cannot be cured (yet). It must be remembered also that individuals with normal BMIs can have up to 22kg of viseral fat inside their abdomens which would go unnoticed without expensive scans which probably are not given. I will quote Prof Taylor to explain more:

"The extent of weight loss required to reverse type 2 diabetes is much greater than conventionally advised"
"Could it (diet) work for people with a normal BMI?
Yes, most certainly, provided that the diagnosis of type 2 diabetes is correct. Some people are
unable to cope with even moderate amounts of fat in their liver and pancreas. Type 2 diabetes
only happens when a Personal Fat Threshold is exceeded. Losing weight within the normal range
is then essential for health."
"Some people can tolerate a BMI of 40 or more without getting diabetes. Others cannot tolerate a BMI of 22 without diabetes appearing, as their bodies are set to function normally at a BMI of, say 19. This is especially so in people of South Asian ethnicity."
"This new understanding of what causes type 2 diabetes and how it can be completely reversed has been used by individuals worldwide"
"Our work has shown that type 2 diabetes is not inevitably progressive and life-long. We have demonstrated that in people who have had type 2 diabetes for 4 years or less, major weight loss returns insulin secretion to normal.

It has been possible to work out the basic mechanisms which lead to type 2 diabetes. Too much fat within liver and pancreas prevents normal insulin action and prevents normal insulin secretion. Both defects are reversible by substantial weight loss.
A crucial point is that individuals have different levels of tolerance of fat within liver and pancreas. Only when a person has more fat than they can cope with does type 2 diabetes develop. In other words, once a person crosses their personal fat threshold, type 2 diabetes develops. Once they successfully lose weight and go below their personal fat threshold, diabetes will disappear."
"1. Diagnosis
The possibility of reversing type 2 diabetes relates specifically to this common form of diabetes. It is
important to identify rare forms of diabetes, as they will not respond in the same way.
a) Pancreatic Diabetes. Most commonly caused by chronic pancreatitis and rarely by
haemochromotosis. The associated clinical features are likely to make this diagnosis evident.
b) Monogenic diabetes. Onset of diabetes in teens or early adult life, usually but not exclusively in
slim individuals and with a very strong family history of diabetes. Although if individuals are
overweight, blood glucose control may be improved by weight loss, beta cell function will not
normalise as the specific genetic change cannot be reversed.
c) Slow Onset type 1 diabetes. Typically individuals present with high blood glucose levels but
appear to respond to diet. Despite adequate diet blood glucose levels rise relatively rapidly and
insulin therapy is required within a few years. The presence of ketones+++ in the urine associated
with hyperglycaemia may be a clue to diagnosis, but any recent hypocaloric dieting would also
produce urinary ketones which merely reflect the healthy physiological mechanism."

 

[lucylocket61]

Only when a person has more fat than they can cope with does type 2 diabetes develop. In other words, once a person crosses their personal fat threshold, type 2 diabetes develops. Once they successfully lose weight and go below their personal fat threshold, diabetes will disappear."

You appear to be saying that slim people with Type 2 diabetes are being misdiagnosed? is that what you mean?

and can I have the link to the study which says this please?

 

[carty]

I had bloods tested because I was under weight and diagnosed type 2 DB I have lowered HbA1c from over15 to 7 with metformin and reduced carbs Like Lucy I would like to see any study which says that I can not be type 2
CAROL

 

[hanadr]

I was diagnosd 10 years ago and now I keep a non-diabetic Hb A1c on minimal medication and low carbs. Nevertheless, if I eat too many carbs for me, My BG knows it.
Hana

 

[stuffedolive]

Only when a person has more fat than they can cope with does type 2 diabetes develop. In other words, once a person crosses their personal fat threshold, type 2 diabetes develops. Once they successfully lose weight and go below their personal fat threshold, diabetes will disappear."

You appear to be saying that slim people with Type 2 diabetes are being misdiagnosed? is that what you mean?

and can I have the link to the study which says this please?

I'm not sure Trotskyite is saying this.
Body weight is made up of both muscle and fat, so two people of the same size and weight can have wildly different muscle/fat ratios. Muscle mass is very important in the way insulin is used in the body and the effectiveness of processing BGs. Thus these two different people will have different susceptibilities to T2 based on their body composition. There is evidence (I have posted this elsewhere on this site) that birthweight establishes the amount of muscle an individual is able to build as an adult and that this is linked to the susceptibility to T2.
So, in my simplistic view, some people are born to be thin and an average weight is just too fat, others are born with the ability to carry a fair bit of weight without undue negative consequences. I'm one of the 'thinnys'' and when I expanded to 'normal' dimensions in my 40's I developed T2.

 

[lucylocket61]

I can see what you re saying, and it makes sense to me. But I still dont think that a few pounds overweight is so critical. We put on several pounds in the Winter and lose it in the Summer as a matter of course. So I dont think even being a stone over weight can produce diabetes. I think there may well be a weight/mass element for some people, but not all.

 

[Yorksman]

I can see what you re saying, and it makes sense to me. But I still dont think that a few pounds overweight is so critical. We put on several pounds in the Winter and lose it in the Summer as a matter of course. So I dont think even being a stone over weight can produce diabetes. I think there may well be a weight/mass element for some people, but not all.

It's the liver and pancreatic triglycerides that are important. Taylor's 'twin cycle hypothesis is:

"The accumulation of fat in liver and secondarily in the pancreas will lead to self-reinforcing cycles that interact to bring about type 2 diabetes. Fatty liver leads to impaired fasting glucose metabolism and increases export of VLDL triacylglycerol, which increases fat delivery to all tissues, including the islets. The liver and pancreas cycles drive onward after diagnosis with steadily decreasing β-cell function."

Different people put down fat in different places but, you don't know how much you need to put down in your liver to start the diabetes process because that again varies from person to person. Moreover, some people may look slim, but have deposits of fat in these organs setting them on the road to diabetes.

"Individual tolerance of different degrees of fat exposure vary, and understanding this liposusceptibility will underpin the future understanding of genetically determined risk in any given environment. However, this should not obscure the central point: If a person has type 2 diabetes, there is more fat in the liver and pancreas than he or she can cope with."

 

[lucylocket61]

Very informative. Thank you.

So how does one cure a fatty liver?

 

[lindisfel]

Hi Kathy....,
I have got my HbA1c down to 46 from 50 purely by bringing carbs down drastically. No meds.
Any grains..including porridge oats and breads, also potatoes, spike me almost immediately after eating and I cannot imagine ever being able to eat the carbs I consumed a year ago before diagnosis....when occasional I enjoyed a large fish and large chips!

Therefore because I am a type 2 I continue to 'throttle' these carbs right back by using a meter to measure their effect.

I have a BMI less then 24, so weight is not a problem now, but I don't have age on my side.

I accept now I am set on a low GI carb diet for life, I shall never be able to eat a 12 inch pizza's again!

As I said 10 years ago when they treated me for locally advanced P.C...."It is life Jim, but not as we know it!"

I hope by diet alone to get my HbA1c down to c.40 but I shall still be a diabetic unless I could get through a glucose tolerance test as a non diabetic.
regards
Derek