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I don't get it..

ladybird64

ladybird64

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,731
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
Dishonesty, selfishness and lack of empathy.
Let me explain what I don't get.

Why the NHS is giving "lifestyle" advice for diabetics (talking of type 2's here folks) that is so blatantly wrong.

As my previous posts show, I am quite anti-meds and I wanted a chance to try and sort my diabetes by diet alone, then came to the conclusion that I might need meds after all. I went to my GP for an unrelated matter, he then gently berated me for my decision not to go on meds, told me that regular testing (the kind you do yourself) was not necessary for diabetics..anyway we disagreed and I left the consultation minus meds. It's possible that I have scored an own goal with this, especially as I was considering if I did need to take them but it's this whole dismissive attitude from the health professionals that gets me.

Basically "go away, exercise more, follow the guidelines laid down, take the tablets and the diabetes is then "managed". But the fact is that it's not is it? How many diabetics are truly managing their diabetes when the guidelines given out are to eat plenty of starchy carbs? Why do they give this advice out when it is known that carbs turn to sugar and thus push levels up?
Even though we are all affected in different ways and have different tolerance levels surely this is the one thing we have in common, we are all affected by what we eat and we all agree that to eat a lot of carbohydrate will affect our blood sugars.

My practice nurse asked to give me some pamphlets about managing my Diabetes the other day. I didn't particularly want them but she is lovely, we get on well and I know she wanted to be doing something useful for me!

One was a leaflet from the British Heart Foundation about the heightened risks of heart problems if you suffer from Diabetes. Dietary advice? As you would expect, cut the fat off everything, eat low fat spreads etc and there it was.."make sure you fill up on plenty of starchy carbohydrate foods"..I dropped the book in disgust.

When all the evidence points to the contrary, how can the NHS and the charity that is supposed to support people in controlling their health (yes, Diabetes UK) get away with this?

I honestly don't get it... :(
 
I'm with you on this one, although I think I do know why they do it. It's a "safety" thing.
They want to tell one consistent story, because they don't think a lot of us are intelligent enough to understand different advice to different diabetic types. If they were to say, " eating less carbs will reduce your BG, and could result in some coming off meds or having less meds", they would be terrified of some people on some med regimes having hypos and blaming them. Telling people to take the pill and stuff themselves with carbs is thus a safe option. They're also afraid of people saying "well, if a few less is good, then none is great" and going Atkins without understanding the potential consequences.
I'm on about 160 grams of low GI carbs a day and no meds, so it can work as we all know. I'm lucky that I can take 160 and have HbA1c's of low 5's. Others aren't as lucky. They need to understand that most of us are bright enough to work out what we can take, and what our options are, if they allow us to test.
They are starting to lighten up a bit now on the "eat starch" line - see recent threads and announcements on diabetes U.K. Don't know how to do links, but look at "low carb diets" on diabetes U.K
Malc
 
I don't get it either, Ladybird. It just seems so logical to me that, if eating carbohydrate puts my blood sugar up, the easiest thing for me to do to lower it is to eat less carbohydrate!

I think many HCPs tend to agree, but have to follow 'official' dietary guidance. My practice nurse and the GP partner I usually go to have no problem with me low-carbing; the diabetic 'specialist' GP tells me low-carb is okay as long as it's low-fat too! I just accept the leaflets with a smile and go my own way. But I'm very worried for all my fellow-diabetics who are not told of the alternative to the NHS standard advice. People should have correct information and choice. I have met one or two older diabetics who didn't know that carbohydrate turns into glucose :shock: - which they should have been told!

I'm toying with the idea of telling my GP that carbohydrate (re diabetes) is like arsenic: a little bit of arsenic added to the diet is apparently excellent for skin and hair; too much will kill you! Although of course carbohydrate causes a much less spectacular death. (My GP has a good sense of humour).

I am absolutely NOT recommending anyone tries arsenic for their hair, by the way! It's a poison, and if you ask for it at the chemist you'll get into lots of problems, and may have the police on your doorstep.

Malc, Atkins is not a no-carb diet! The 20g of carb daily Induction Phase is only supposed to last for 2 weeks, then you gradually increase to the level that suits you.

Viv 8)
 
After I attended a day session with other newly diagnosed Australian T2 around 4 years ago, dieticians and educators trained us in what types of foods contained bg raising carbs and how to tailor a diet to suit either a male or female with three snacks and three meals a day I went home and carefully set about following it to a tee. It was not that different to what I already was doing. Emphasis was placed on the value of low GI foods. I could not shift my fasting figures from just over 6.0 or induce a weight loss while I did this.
I wonder why they did not offer me a workable alternative? I think I calculated their carb load was about 130-145 gr carbs a day. Experience has shown that my pancreas just cannot take this load unless I medicate.

Where did the sudden notion spring up on this forum that Atkins is "no carbs" Malc? It is not and never has been. Even 20g a day of carbs is not a "no carb" diet
 
clearviews said:
Where did the sudden notion spring up on this forum that Atkins is "no carbs" Malc? It is not and never has been. Even 20g a day of carbs is not a "no carb" diet
Click to expand...
viviennem said:
Malc, Atkins is not a no-carb diet! The 20g of carb daily Induction Phase is only supposed to last for 2 weeks, then you gradually increase to the level that suits you.
Click to expand...

I understand that, and you're right, but I was just trying to illustrate the point that "official advice" is scared of discussing low carb, and Atkins is seen as "ultra low" by most, regardless of wether it is or not. My use of the words "no carb" was a careless slip - shoot me **** it! :oops:
Malc
 
I totally agree. As an engineer & scientist I have never understood why the NHS and DUK etc hand out such bad advice ref carbs and fat; it is frightening and making those with Type 2 worse. I do take meds because even with a sensible low-carb diet and exercise I can't hold my BS down, but there must be many who can avoid meds by having the 'right' diabetic diet. What also amazes me is that the diet advice problem isn't just limited to the UK; have a look at the American Diabetes site. The NHS/NICE recent papers state that a low-carb diet can't be recommended because the long-term safety can't be assured yet today's 'standard' consumer diet is know to result in obesity, Type 2, heart problems etc. This is all scientific nonsense yet purveyed by professionals. I wonder whether the food industry and it's love affair with refined carbs is having an influence somewhere......
 
ladybird64 said:
Let me explain what I don't get.



As my previous posts show, I am quite anti-meds and I wanted a chance to try and sort my diabetes by diet alone, then came to the conclusion that I might need meds after all. I went to my GP for an unrelated matter, he then gently berated me for my decision not to go on meds, told me that regular testing (the kind you do yourself) was not necessary for diabetics..anyway we disagreed and I left the consultation minus meds. It's possible that I have scored an own goal with this, especially as I was considering if I did need to take them but it's this whole dismissive attitude from the health professionals that gets me.
Click to expand...

Sounds a bit as though you are cutting your nose off to spite your face, what i dont get is that you think you may require meds but you end up arguing with your GP wouldnt it have been better to just say that you wanted some medication to help with your diet and leave it at that, it should come as no surprise to hear that your GP is not advocating self testing for T2's, we all know the score on that by now dont we, there must be posts into double figurers now saying the same thing. If you go into see your doctor expecting an argument what do you think will happen? its not rocket science, so smile sweetly and say "Oh OK" and then go and buy your own.



ladybird64 said:
Basically "go away, exercise more, follow the guidelines laid down, take the tablets and the diabetes is then "managed". But the fact is that it's not is it? How many diabetics are truly managing their diabetes when the guidelines given out are to eat plenty of starchy carbs?
Click to expand...

Yawn, sorry but I've never been told that, in fact the only time I ever hear it is when it is bandied about by low carbers who seem to take some perverse pleasure from it. I have been told to eat carbs with every meal but never to eat plenty/loads of starchy carbs.

And as for fat, yes the current advice is to not eat too much fat especially saturated fat. Many low carbers will claim that there is no evidence that eating a high fat diet is bad for your cardio vascular system but neither is there any evidence that it isn't. And I care not what some quacks say on blogs, until my cardiologist tells me different I will not eat more saturated fat.

The funny thing is that I eat carbs with most meals yet I am well controlled and have sustained my 4 stone weight loss and enjoy an excellent relationship with my PG and health care team, we dont agree about everything but they are always prepared to hear my views as I do not go looking for an argument. And as for my lipid profile most high fat low carbers would love to have my Trigs score of 0.5 mmol/L and I dont eat lots of fat but then I dont eat lots of anything else either.
 
Sid,
thanks for the usual bleat "they never tell me that! -
Fine but they appear to tell a few of us that so - Lucky you! for those that DO get told that please support - those that are lucky - you are lucky!
 
Bleating :lol:


And yes I am lucky, lucky not to be a victim :D
 
Sid Bonkers said:
ladybird64 said:
Let me explain what I don't get.



As my previous posts show, I am quite anti-meds and I wanted a chance to try and sort my diabetes by diet alone, then came to the conclusion that I might need meds after all. I went to my GP for an unrelated matter, he then gently berated me for my decision not to go on meds, told me that regular testing (the kind you do yourself) was not necessary for diabetics..anyway we disagreed and I left the consultation minus meds. It's possible that I have scored an own goal with this, especially as I was considering if I did need to take them but it's this whole dismissive attitude from the health professionals that gets me.
Click to expand...

Sounds a bit as though you are cutting your nose off to spite your face, what i dont get is that you think you may require meds but you end up arguing with your GP wouldnt it have been better to just say that you wanted some medication to help with your diet and leave it at that, it should come as no surprise to hear that your GP is not advocating self testing for T2's, we all know the score on that by now dont we, there must be posts into double figurers now saying the same thing. If you go into see your doctor expecting an argument what do you think will happen? its not rocket science, so smile sweetly and say "Oh OK" and then go and buy your own.



ladybird64 said:
Basically "go away, exercise more, follow the guidelines laid down, take the tablets and the diabetes is then "managed". But the fact is that it's not is it? How many diabetics are truly managing their diabetes when the guidelines given out are to eat plenty of starchy carbs?
Click to expand...

Yawn, sorry but I've never been told that, in fact the only time I ever hear it is when it is bandied about by low carbers who seem to take some perverse pleasure from it. I have been told to eat carbs with every meal but never to eat plenty/loads of starchy carbs.

And as for fat, yes the current advice is to not eat too much fat especially saturated fat. Many low carbers will claim that there is no evidence that eating a high fat diet is bad for your cardio vascular system but neither is there any evidence that it isn't. And I care not what some quacks say on blogs, until my cardiologist tells me different I will not eat more saturated fat.

The funny thing is that I eat carbs with most meals yet I am well controlled and have sustained my 4 stone weight loss and enjoy an excellent relationship with my PG and health care team, we dont agree about everything but they are always prepared to hear my views as I do not go looking for an argument. And as for my lipid profile most high fat low carbers would love to have my Trigs score of 0.5 mmol/L and I dont eat lots of fat but then I dont eat lots of anything else either.
Click to expand...


Couple points Sid.

Firstly, if you re-read my original post you will see that i said I went to the GP regarding an unrelated matter. I do not take kindly to my appt being sabotaged and my being lectured about something else which is what happened. I didn't go expecting an argument but as it is an issue I feel strongly about and which has been proven to help an individual manage their diabetes, I asked about test strips. I am not one of those that have posted about this before on the forum nor have I discussed it with my own GP so as he was intent on talking about it, I asked. As is my right as a patient. I fully intended to go and discuss meds at a different time, when I was ready to.

Next point. I am not a "low carber", just someone who is cutting down a bit on what I ate previously. I am not "bandying" anything around, what I quoted was from the British Heart Foundation booklet for those with Diabetes. I'm sure you could get it from your practice nurse4 or GP then you can see the info for yourself.
I am not in the habit of making thing up and your "yawn" remark was pretty unnecessary and a bit offensive but hey, there we go.

You seem to have jumped to a few conclusions so I'll clarify things for you. I do not go to my docs looking for an argument, never have done. I don't low carb, high carb or any bloomin thing carb..I am just trying to get by and reduce what I see affects my bg's.

I don't do blogs and have my own opinions about such things as fats (which I hate and the thought of having high fat in my diet makes me feel ill) given the fact that many of my own family have died from heart disease.

Lastly..go and buy the test strips? Yep would be lovely. Maybe I will when I can get the funds to do just that but seeing as I have been a fulltime carer for my disabled daughter for the past twenty years and have had to manage the last few years on Carers Allowance that would be quite difficult.

So there we go, clarification. Sorry if my post struck a nerve but i don't think there was anything in it that could have been considered remotely provocative..just factual.
 
Hey Sid. why so aggressive? Seems that all these threads start off with someone (like Ladybird in this case) making a reasonable observation from their experience, and someone dives in with daggers drawn. Things then escalate until the moderator shuts things down.Why not just add your views rather than trying to get a dig in?
 
OK my post may have been a little OTT but I still stand by it you get from your health care team what you sow, so to speak, I was once told by my practice nurse that as a T2 on insulin I didnt need to test :lol: I chose to ignore the remark and just kept putting in repeat prescriptions and my GP never questioned it, on another occasion I asked the same nurse a question regarding insulin and she said "Oh i'm sorry but I dont really know anything about insulin!!!".

Yes in retrospect I was definitely OTT in my reply to you but I am just so tired of all the low carb nonsense that has crept onto the forum of late, almost every answer to your OP tells the same story and my comments re fat were not aimed at you but at Diabell giving the usual low carb paranoid drivel about the food industry having an influence somewhere and the comment:

Daibell said:
I totally agree. As an engineer & scientist I have never understood why the NHS and DUK etc hand out such bad advice ref carbs and fat; it is frightening and making those with Type 2 worse...

The NHS/NICE recent papers state that a low-carb diet can't be recommended because the long-term safety can't be assured yet today's 'standard' consumer diet is know to result in obesity, Type 2, heart problems etc. This is all scientific nonsense yet purveyed by professionals.
Click to expand...

Absolute garbage wrapped in scientific references.

So, Ladybird I apologise to you if I have came across a bit gung ho but I think I am pretty much done with this forum now it seems to be dominated by members who claim to be low carbers but who in reality are obese and have no bg control and those who do have control but want to belittle anyone who doesn't follow their low carb gospel.

Thankfully I am well controlled as I was helped by good advice I received here on this forum before it descended to what it is now. I will still read some of the posts here but I think my posting days are pretty much over now.

Once again I apologise to you Ladybird I think this was the straw that broke this camels back :D
 
Sid referred to . . .
members who claim to be low carbers but who in reality are obese and have no bg control and those who do have control but want to belittle anyone who doesn't follow their low carb gospel.
Click to expand...

Yes, I am a low-carber, and yes, I am obese, but 50lb less obese than when I was diagnosed and re-started low-carbing, and with bg levels that are more often than not in the "non-diabetic" range. Occasionally I slip but hey, don't we all?

I certainly don't intend to belittle anyone who doesn't need to low-carb, and if anyone things I have belittled them, please PM me and I'll give them a personal apology.

Nonetheless, I have in front of me 1) Food Choices and Diabetes published by Diabetes UK, and 2) First Steps to Healthy Eating with Diabetes, published by the Mid Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust.

The first says "Eat regular meals based on starchy foods such as bread, pasta, chapatis, potatoes, rice and cereals. This will help you to control blood glucose levels."

The second says: "Eat regular meals. Always include starchy foods such as bread, potatoes, rice, pasta, chapattis or cereals (not sugar or honey coated)."

Some people may be able to eat this way and still maintain good control over their bg levels. I can't. It's as simple as that. I explain what works for me. If it doesn't work for other people - well, okay. Sorry I spoke.

Viv 8)
 
Hi Sid

Where was the garbage in my post? You may feel some of it a bit extreme and I respect your views but the comments in the NHS/NICE stuff about unproven long-term effects versus today's diet is sheer bad scientific reasoning and not the sort of reasoning I would have followed in my professional work before retiring. The result of these questionable references is to not recommend having a low carb diet within the health profession. I am underweight as are many others with Type 2 on the forum and I neither eat too much nor too little carb. Perhaps I am a bit paranoid about the food industry and the comment was intended more as a throw-away line and should have been left out :-). I personally keep my carbs under control as I'm on 3rd level meds before insulin and my BG control could still be better. My meter readings show the worth for me of avoiding too many carbs. I agree with you that others will be different and may be able to eat carbs or whatever more freely; the meter being the proof of what works for you.
 
I'm 'diabetic'.....I don't care what type we are, what size we are, and what regimes we all follow...so long as people give knowledge and their experiences without 'digs' at other people......

We all have huge experiences, and as we all know-we are all individuals...what works for some-doesn't work for others etc.....

Perhaps I am very lucky, that I have never been lectured by my HCP's about foods....but i guess this may be because I am lean and mean and they look at my log books to see what foods I eat.....even when my cholesterol has gone higher, I was not lectured about the types of foods, as again they can actually see that I am not excessive with anything...and I think this is the most important thing....EVERYTHING IS ALLOWABLE IN MODERATION.

I really do wish that personal 'digs' could be outlawed....and keep to saying things such as 'this works for me' without getting claws out at everybody else that does something different.

Yet again a moderator has had to intervene on this posting, and I am really disappointed at this.
 
viviennem said:
Yes, I am a low-carber, and yes, I am obese, but 50lb less obese than when I was diagnosed and re-started low-carbing
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Me too! That's the weight of a chunky child between us. (Probably not a very attractive child if (s)he's made entirely of discarded body fat).
 
Sid Bonkers said:
I will still read some of the posts here but I think my posting days are pretty much over now.

Once again I apologise to you Ladybird I think this was the straw that broke this camels back
Click to expand...

Hey, Don't stop posting Sid! So we all (including me) shouted at you a bit, but that doesn't mean we don't want your contribution. Maybe just count to 10 before hitting the "submit" button sometimes. We all get annoyed at posts and say the wrong things, or use the wrong tone, sometimes. Surely part of the purpose of the forum is to give us a chance to let off steam a bit. So come back and entertain/inform us!
 
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