Links to studies supporting Low Carb/showing calorie restriction ineffective?

Walking Girl

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Sorry these sentences made it sound more of a theory


And sorry it wasn’t clear to me it excluded anything about blood sugars. Just about weight.

As I said I’m very glad it’s working for you but I maintain it’s about carb management primarily - as that rather takes care of weight management. Maybe the changes you’ve made have incorporated that anyway.

The nature of these forums make it tough to fully communicate. I asked my doctor this question at a diabetes appt. The speech on not exceeding specific blood glucose measures was already had, and then I said “hey, I’ve read A LOT about weight loss reducing insulin resistance, so, which diet do you recommend for that...”. And she gave me the response of a very good doctor...what would I actually and genuinely do?

And voila, 90 pounds ( 41 kilos ) later it turns out for me, personally, it was largely about the weight (and regular exercise). I get that is not true for everyone; diabetes is a complex disease.
 
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Guzzler

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The nature of these forums make it tough to fully communicate. I asked my doctor this question at a diabetes appt. The speech on not exceeding specific blood glucose measures was already had, and then I said “hey, I’ve read A LOT about weight loss reducing insulin resistance, so, which diet do you recommend for that...”. And she gave me the response of a very good doctor...what would I actually and genuinely do?

And voila, 90 pounds ( 41 kilos ) later it turns out for me, personally, it was largely about the weight (and regular exercise). I get that is not true for everyone; diabetes is a complex disease.
I get the impression that you think that everyone will eventually regain any weight they lose. And the advice from your doctor just screams non committal.

I personally chose to read lots and understand T2 metabolism to the best of my ability because understanding why bg and weight (among other things) affect us helps with motivation.

As to long term studies, it depends how you define long term. Finally, this thread mainly addressed different methods of weight loss but I'm sure that we would all agree that bg levels and insulin levels trump weight all day long.
 

Guzzler

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I feel a poll may be in order.

It seems to me that the primary goal of a CICO modelled diet is weight loss.
The primary goal of a lower carb lifestyle is metabolic health and weight loss is a side effect (albeit an important and very happy one).
 

ATZ

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Please could you point out where in that paper it says so? I couldn't find what you claim is written in the paper: There is no mention of "hour" or "hours" anywhere in the paper, nor "days" associated with either "2" or "two" and "adapt" is only mentioned in the heading I quote below, the contents and two study references. This is a quote from the paper you cite:

Adaptation to ketosis
During starvation, ketone body levels increase from day 3 and continue to rise to reach a plateau around 8 mmol/L after 5—6 weeks of starvation.​

which seems to back what we were saying. No?
Not really no.

Changes in ketone levels show that switching of fuel utilisation happens much faster than most keto advocates claim.

The fact that levels don't peak for some weeks is not evidence that you need that long to "adapt" either. It also shows how low on the body's hierarchy ketones are as a fuel source, they're a back up fuel.
 

ATZ

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And that is the root of the problem.

You are so limited in your perspective that you cannot see what you are being told, over and over again on this thread (and everywhere else on the forum, if you go and look).

The thing that unites diabetics is that they got diagnosed as having high blood glucose, and given a label of ‘Diabetic’. With the likely addition of a secondary label, ‘type 1’, ‘type 2’, ‘type 3’ (there are lots of those), ‘insipidus’, ‘bronze’, etc.

These types of D are fundamentally different. In their physical manifestation (autoimmune, insulin resistance, alpha and/or beta cell damage, or total pancreatic failure, AVP/ADH hormones being wonky, damaging levels of ferritin, etc.), and their treatment (insulin, diet, exercise, oral meds, phlebotamy, etc).

The thing that makes every diabetic an individual within those groups, is that each has a personal experience, based on the individual way that their body is failing. No two type 1s have the same experience, from each other, from yesterday, from tomorrow. Every day an adventure. Each type 2 has a different carb tolerance, level of insulin resistance, reaction to different foods, to medication... The variation is endless.

Your belief that there are universal rules that apply to everyone is... well, actually, it is betraying your lack of understanding of ‘diabetes’ with every post.

You have people posting on every side, trying to explain this, but you reject what they are saying. Over and over again.

So the carb tolerating diabetics in that study are not relevant to me. My body doesn’t tolerate carbs. Thats a fundamental difference, right there. A high carb diet would send me into a cycle of hypers and hypos and i would have been expelled from the study by day 3. Actually, I would have walked out as soon as I got ill, or been excluded from the study before it started.

These studies have stringent selection processes and I would have been weeded out as soon as they discovered my reaction to carbs and my other health issues. It is a common feature of these studies that they are only as good as their selection process. Just as Professor Taylor’s Newcastle Diet studies select their participants.

You did know that, didn’t you? That the ND pre-study selection process weeded out large numbers of ‘unsuitable’ diabetics? Rejecting those with longer term diagnoses, those who did not have a BMI high enough, and those with other health issues and co-morbidities. Yet even then, the participants did not all respond in the same way. The non-responders seem to be swept aside, with all the focus being on the responders.

I would not even have got through the ND selection process (no point in trying to defat a liver that doesn’t have fat in it, is there?).

So no, those high carb studies you mention are of no relevance to me. Just as the ND is of no relevance to me.
Or to many of the other people posting on this thread who are banging their heads against the wall of your faith in science and its universal application.
Again the irony here is strong. You're proving the point I was making.

I'm not ruling out individual differences to dietary responses, I prescribe low carb diets sometimess myself. But if individual differences are in important why does everyone here rule out any other diet than LC or LCHF for diabetes management? When I've shown they can be successfully treated with a large percentage of carbohydrate in your diet in clinical settings?

This being the case it demonstrates that something more fundamental than hormones is responsible for improvements in the majority of cases.
 

Guzzler

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Again the irony here is strong. You're proving the point I was making.

I'm not ruling out individual differences to dietary responses, I prescribe low carb diets sometimess myself. But if individual differences are in important why does everyone here rule out any other diet than LC or LCHF for diabetes management? When I've shown they can be successfully treated with a large percentage of carbohydrate in your diet in clinical settings?

This being the case it demonstrates that something more fundamental than hormones is responsible for improvements in the majority of cases.
What are these things that are more fundamental than hormones?
 

bulkbiker

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The most effective diet ever studied in treatment of T2D, isn’t even low in carbs - at least not as a percentage of its calories.

And that is your big mistake because in terms of outright carb consumption it would be described as "low carb".. in the early trials they even tested for ketones.
Also it is not the "most effective" as results after two years were no better (and many would consider worse) than ViRTA Health's results. When you take into account that ViRTA didn't pre-select participants in the same way that DiRECT did.

why does everyone here rule out any other diet than LC or LCHF

Because we have done it and for many of us has worked;
1. fairly effortlessly
2. without feeling starved
3. because its pretty easy to follow
4. produces stunning results

The forum is about sharing personal knowledge and experiences.. something you have so far seemed incapable of understanding.
 

lucylocket61

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But if individual differences are in important why does everyone here rule out any other diet than LC or LCHF for diabetes management?
1) we dont, we are sharing that your blanket view that CICO works for all has exceptions, using our personal experience.

2) what type of diabetics are you referring to, and what meds are they on?

When I've shown they can be successfully treated with a large percentage of carbohydrate in your diet in clinical settings?

nope. You have shown studies where 49% carbs has been tested versus 73% carbs - and the benefits were minuscule.

I will ask this again, for the third time: who do you recommend low carb diets for, under what circumstances, and why do you choose to recommend them for those people?
 
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ATZ

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I couldnt watch either video, as you links dont work. one says Bad Gateway, and one says Not Found
They work perfectly here.

Just search for "abs and icecream" alternatively.

His results after eating 80% of his calories from ice cream for 100 days.

Blood results (Before / After):

Triglycerides (fat in your blood): 72 / 47
HDL (Good Cholesterol): 52 / 69
LDL (Bad Cholesterol): 52 / 47
Cardiac Risk Factor: 2.3 / 1.6

All improved.
 

zand

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@ATZ I spent many years thinking I was the only person who couldn't lose weight whilst sticking to a diet, any diet. I religiously stuck to the diets my doctor gave me, but my doctor didn't believe I had. That was soul destroying. I knew something was wrong with my body because it just didn't respond to diets like it should. I stumbled upon the idea of reducing carbs myself by finding out quite by accident that having a bacon butty without the bread filled me up for longer than the same amount of bacon with bread.

Then amazingly one day I found this forum and found there were very many others just like me. It became a safe place for me. It isn't a safe place while someone tells me that I haven't been counting calories properly and 'proves this' by quoting a study saying women underestimate their calories. Yes some do. Some don't. I love counting carbs and calories, it's the way I know I am 'doing it right'. We are all individuals, I do so wish you would stop and think about what you are doing here and why you are trying to rubbish our very valid personal experiences. I will be having a rest from here now until you get fed up with this ridiculous quest of yours to tell us where we are going wrong.

A slogan on a T-shirt I saw the other day. 'People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do '. I smiled and thought of you.... ;)
 

lucylocket61

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They work perfectly here.

Just search for "abs and icecream" alternatively.

His results after eating 80% of his calories from ice cream for 100 days.

Blood results (Before / After):

Triglycerides (fat in your blood): 72 / 47
HDL (Good Cholesterol): 52 / 69
LDL (Bad Cholesterol): 52 / 47
Cardiac Risk Factor: 2.3 / 1.6

All improved.
that information is of no use without me being able to see the type and quantity of food he ate, and all the other relevant data.

I also thought you were against using anecdotes as evidence?
 

zand

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that information is of no use without me being able to see the type and quantity of food he ate, and all the other relevant data.

I also thought you were against using anecdotes as evidence?
Only when they are our anecdotes...;)
 

Guzzler

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They work perfectly here.

Just search for "abs and icecream" alternatively.

His results after eating 80% of his calories from ice cream for 100 days.

Blood results (Before / After):

Triglycerides (fat in your blood): 72 / 47
HDL (Good Cholesterol): 52 / 69
LDL (Bad Cholesterol): 52 / 47
Cardiac Risk Factor: 2.3 / 1.6

All improved.
Might I ask why, all of a sudden, you are quoting lipids? And anyone who still uses the terms "good cholesterol" and "bad cholesterol" is way behind the times in my humble opinion.

Please do not misunderstand, I am not dismissing lipids as unimportant, just wondering about the change in tack.
 
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ATZ

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that information is of no use without me being able to see the type and quantity of food he ate, and all the other relevant data.

I also thought you were against using anecdotes as evidence?
I am in general against anecdotes yes, you all here seem to live by "personal experience" though.

As I said. He ate 80% of his calories daily from ice cream. It's all there if you go look for it with a website dedicated to it.
 

ATZ

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Might I ask why, all of a sudden, you are quoting lipids? And anyone who still uses the terms "good cholesterol" and "bad cholesterol" is way behind the times in my humble opinion.

Please do not misunderstand, I am not dismissing lipids as unimportant, just wondering about the change in tack.
Because it shows the importance of weight management on health parameters in general.