Scientists: Avoid fats, not carbs

[Celeriac]

I started cutting out Low GI carbs which still spiked me in 2008 and when low carb fully in 2010, organic in 2012. I had managed to lose weight before I was diagnosed just by being more active until a gym injury. I lost more weight on low carb so I'm no longer fat.

Low carb does keep my blood glucose lower and I'm quite willing to believe that becoming fully fat adapted takes longer than 6 days. (Remember Dr Stephen Phinney and the cyclists ?).

However, my one concern about low carb, is the claims for insulin resistance.

Anecdotally, members of the Paleo community advise people having a GTT to refeed carbs prior to the test, because otherwise, though not diabetic, many will fail it. I have also read posts which say that low carb causes high FBG. As someone with diabetes, I don't want high FBG which can make it harder to push them down during the day with oral meds, judicious eating and exercise.

Dr Jason Fung, says that high BG is a symptom of diabetes and not the cause of it, that insulin is.

T2DM is supposed to be a progressive disease yet we don't usually focus on insulin at all. It's all about BG. When the numbers go down, what's actually happening, is that the BG is being shunted into cells and if we're not using it, that is often maybe even mostly being laid down as fat.

We know that a calorie is not a calorie, and that the law of thermodynamics doesn't describe the energy burning process well.

Gary Taubes I think it was, used the analogy that if you arrive at at an airport and it's full, yes it's full because more people arrived than left i.e. calories in, calories out, but it says nothing about bad weather, strikes, plane crash, special offers, peak holiday season or any other reasons why the airport is crowded.

Dr Fung believes in Intermittent Fasting, Professor Taylor believes in the low calorie Newcastle Diet to reset insulin sensitivity.

I just wonder whether low carb really does have the effect on insulin sensitivity that we believe, when FBG can be higher. We may only have lower BG because we've lowered the amount of carbs we eat. We may have done nothing to repair insulin sensitivity.


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[Roytaylorjasonfunglover]

I started cutting out Low GI carbs which still spiked me in 2008 and when low carb fully in 2010, organic in 2012. I had managed to lose weight before I was diagnosed just by being more active until a gym injury. I lost more weight on low carb so I'm no longer fat.

Low carb does keep my blood glucose lower and I'm quite willing to believe that becoming fully fat adapted takes longer than 6 days. (Remember Dr Stephen Phinney and the cyclists ?).

However, my one concern about low carb, is the claims for insulin resistance.

Anecdotally, members of the Paleo community advise people having a GTT to refeed carbs prior to the test, because otherwise, though not diabetic, many will fail it. I have also read posts which say that low carb causes high FBG. As someone with diabetes, I don't want high FBG which can make it harder to push them down during the day with oral meds, judicious eating and exercise.

Dr Jason Fung, says that high BG is a symptom of diabetes and not the cause of it, that insulin is.

T2DM is supposed to be a progressive disease yet we don't usually focus on insulin at all. It's all about BG. When the numbers go down, what's actually happening, is that the BG is being shunted into cells and if we're not using it, that is often maybe even mostly being laid down as fat.

We know that a calorie is not a calorie, and that the law of thermodynamics doesn't describe the energy burning process well.

Gary Taubes I think it was, used the analogy that if you arrive at at an airport and it's full, yes it's full because more people arrived than left i.e. calories in, calories out, but it says nothing about bad weather, strikes, plane crash, special offers, peak holiday season or any other reasons why the airport is crowded.

Dr Fung believes in Intermittent Fasting, Professor Taylor believes in the low calorie Newcastle Diet to reset insulin sensitivity.

I just wonder whether low carb really does have the effect on insulin sensitivity that we believe, when FBG can be higher. We may only have lower BG because we've lowered the amount of carbs we eat. We may have done nothing to repair insulin sensitivity.


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If you lose weight on the lowcarb, your insulin sensitivity is going to improved. If you just eat lowcarb, and do not lose any weight, it is not going to help you that much I am afraid. Most people do not like to hear this, but that is what my current understanding of diabetes science lead me to conclude.

 

[uart]

I just wonder whether low carb really does have the effect on insulin sensitivity that we believe, when FBG can be higher. We may only have lower BG because we've lowered the amount of carbs we eat. We may have done nothing to repair insulin sensitivity.

LCHF is a low insulin demand diet. The idea is that maintaining a relatively low insulin demand over a period of time can help to repair impaired insulin sensitivity.

High FBG levels seems to be the usual situation for people with T2D and insulin resistance. In my case a LCHF diet has definitely improved my FBG levels.

Anecdotally, members of the Paleo community advise people having a GTT to refeed carbs prior to the test, because otherwise, though not diabetic, many will fail it.

Then that would confirm my suspicion that the reduced insulin sensitivity reportedly caused by eating a high fat diet may be transient in nature, and so quite a separate issue to the longer term benefits of reduced insulin demand (and reduced insulin levels) on insulin sensitivity.

 

[LucySW]

I just wonder whether low carb really does have the effect on insulin sensitivity that we believe, when FBG can be higher. We may only have lower BG because we've lowered the amount of carbs we eat. We may have done nothing to repair insulin sensitivity.

I fear that may be right, Celeriac. When I put my head over the parapet and eat a bit of carb, the reaction is Major. OTOH losing 10kg probably helped.

I like to Fung. Of course exercise helps, tho PLEASE let the exercise bores not start on again. I have to stick to low carb, but I think in doing so I'm just refraining from exposing my poor little organism to carbs rather than increasing insulin sensitivity.

And uArt, I agree that dietary fat increasing IR is only temporary - based on my experience.

 

[reidpj]

..........
refraining from exposing my poor little organism to carbs rather than increasing insulin sensitivity....
.

Same here.

I, also, find that if I increase my protein intake much above 0.7g per kg of body weight, my average FBG starts to rise.

 

[Daibell]

Who are these scientists? What are their qualifications and have they applied good scientific method in their studies and are they un-influenced by drug and food companies? So much of these research professors when you dig down have used questionable research methods and are often funded by companies with an interest in the results.

 

[graj0]

If you just eat lowcarb, and do not lose any weight, it is not going to help you that much I am afraid.

I eat lower carb, about 80 gms a day, I don't lose weight despite my calorie intake being considerably lower than my BMR. I avoided going on to insulin, threw away Gliclazide and Januvia, better still, took the decision to dump statins because my cholesterol dropped considerably. In my case, I think it's helped a lot, I'd like to think that other people have had similar benefits to lowering their carbs and better still, they lose weight as well.
My initial aim when lowering carbs had been to lose weight, and I did, just some way to go, but controlling my BG without loads of medication which all seem to have some unfortunate side effect is very important to me.

 

[Brunneria]

I have no idea whether low carbing affects my insulin resistance. It might.

Unfortunately the benefit is buried under PCOS, insulin resistance raising medication, more wacky hormones (on top of the PCOS) and what seems to be some delightful family inheritance of carb intolerance - all of which seem to outweigh the effect of diet on IR.

Exercise, while it makes a perceptable difference, is unable to compete for anything like the length of time promised by the exercise bunnies.

That brilliant vid of Phinney's lecture (in the Kraft thread) says it all, really, when he points out that the ones who lose the most weight and benefit the most from low carbing are usually men who have higher uric acid (testable in their urine). Women, especially ones with wacky hormones, and lower uric acid, get lots of bg benefit, but much less of the weight loss benefits. Although there are, of course, exceptions to every rule.

 

[jddukes]

You can talk all day long about how "keto-adaptation ain't thing" when you consider 140g/day of carbs a low carb diet and the results from such a study sufficient to conclude that low carb diets lose less fat than low fat diets. That inherently ignores the modern concept and standard application to the whole point of what low carb truly is and relies on (i.e. getting into ketosis which will not happen at 140g/day carbs for 1 week, or ~30%of calories from carbs).

Also, see previously published data such as:

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/13

 

[dbr10]

Fats are necessary for good health, carbs are not, it makes sense to cut the carbs and keep the fats.

Especially since we cannot eat many carbs. So there is really only one choice to make - fat. Personally I think it doesn't pay to worry if a high fat diet is bad for the heart - diabetes is too.

 

[Cl1ve]

Hi . I don't think a very low carb diet is good in the long term . The body uses carbs as a fast energy source all the cells in the body burn glucose so to metabolise fat is a lot slower . Athletes eat high carb diets before competing . I know that most of the population do not need as much as we are eating . Maybe it's best to cut down on the very processed carb like white flour . Rice and bread
Clive

 

[Brunneria]

Hi . I don't think a very low carb diet is good in the long term . The body uses carbs as a fast energy source all the cells in the body burn glucose so to metabolise fat is a lot slower . Athletes eat high carb diets before competing . I know that most of the population do not need as much as we are eating . Maybe it's best to cut down on the very processed carb like white flour . Rice and bread
Clive

There are some athletes (the Australian Cricket team, long distrance cyclists, runners, etc) who are actively switching to low carb ketogenic diets because of the performance it gives them. Long distance runners, in particular, find that they don't have to carb load, and don't hit 'the wall', which gives them quite an edge. I believe (sorry, don't have the links) that recent winners of the very long distance endurance races are ketogenic (the 100 mile races).

The whole 'the body and brain must have carbs' idea has been pretty much debunked nowadays.

 

[Cl1ve]

Hi . I have read an article that is saying that in the long run it is bad for you . There is so much we don't know yet that the information we are given changes all the time . The article I read was saying that after a year the people on high fat low carb diets where starting to put weigh back on . So I think we can read an article then a few months later we fine a new one be bunking the last one
Clive

 

[tim2000s]

Hi . I don't think a very low carb diet is good in the long term . The body uses carbs as a fast energy source all the cells in the body burn glucose so to metabolise fat is a lot slower . Athletes eat high carb diets before competing . I know that most of the population do not need as much as we are eating . Maybe it's best to cut down on the very processed carb like white flour . Rice and bread
Clive

As @Brunneria said, this isn't true at all. Glucose for Glycogen and the brain can be created from protein, so it is not necessary to ingest it artificially.

For anything other than explosive anaerobic exercise, the muscles can burn fat. For explosive stuff, first they use the muscle glycogen, then liver glycogen dumped into the blood.

 

[Brunneria]

Hi . I have read an article that is saying that in the long run it is bad for you . There is so much we don't know yet that the information we are given changes all the time . The article I read was saying that after a year the people on high fat low carb diets where starting to put weigh back on . So I think we can read an article then a few months later we fine a new one be bunking the last one
Clive

After a year, people on ALL diets start to put the weight back on. 90% of all diets fail, with regain, and it is a tiny minority who actually reach and maintain their target weight.

There have, over the years, been many articles saying that low carbing is bad for you. The ones I have read have rarely used well researched sources. The best info I have ever found on low carbing and the effect on your body is the Volleck and Phinney 'Art and Science of Low Carb Living'. Wonderful book. It debunks all the silly internet myths about how bad LC is for you. Explains why so many low carb studies have been so badly designed that they were doomed from the start, or too short, or incorrectly analysed, etc. etc. I would recommend it to anyone.

Volleck and Phinney are involved in training and researching low carbing for the endurance athletes I mentioned above, so they have a much better access to actual evidence, than most journalists.

They also give interesting and useful information on LC and cholesterol, and why, for some individuals, LC works better or worse. Fascinating stuff.

 

[Cl1ve]

Yes it seems the more I read the less I know . Was reading an article ref we should not eat meat as we are not designed to eat it ref are teeth are made for grinding not tearing flesh . So he is saying that we should live on grain veg and fruit . But I think it is not good to exclude any food group . But to eat in a sensible way I do think that there is so much hidden sugar in are food that it is killing us slowly . Soon are children will be dying before there parents . The hidden sugar debate is only just starting some are saying it will be like the tobacco industry . I'm waiting with bated breath
Clive

 

[hankjam]

Hi . I have read an article that is saying that in the long run it is bad for you . There is so much we don't know yet that the information we are given changes all the time . The article I read was saying that after a year the people on high fat low carb diets where starting to put weigh back on . So I think we can read an article then a few months later we fine a new one be bunking the last one
Clive

For me, being gong LCMF since Spring 14 and for the last couple of months flat lining on the weight front.

At the moment I eat like a horse.....

Time will tell though

 

[Cl1ve]

Hi . I have read about the same kind of results that you are having it seams after a year most people have the same problem . I believe the problem with are food is the refined sugar that the good carbs like fruit veg and grain . But I think that a lot more research needs to be done . One group on a very low car diet started to report low energy levels after a long time on the diet . So I guess that is a thing to look out for . You will have to keep us informed about how you are doing . You are the longest person I know that has been on the low carb diet . So your a pinion is very valued
Clive

 

[SunnyExpat]

There are some athletes (the Australian Cricket team, long distrance cyclists, runners, etc) who are actively switching to low carb ketogenic diets because of the performance it gives them. Long distance runners, in particular, find that they don't have to carb load, and don't hit 'the wall', which gives them quite an edge. I believe (sorry, don't have the links) that recent winners of the very long distance endurance races are ketogenic (the 100 mile races).

The whole 'the body and brain must have carbs' idea has been pretty much debunked nowadays.

Sorry, but the only thing debunked was the Australian cricket team being LCHF. It was admitted they had to carb load to effectively strenuously play, such as fast bowling. They don't go ketogenic.

Maybe it works for low energy endurance.

 

[Brunneria]

http://primedforyourlife.com/2015/04/17/primed-lchf-aussie-cricketers-on-top-of-the-world/