There are many "WHY"

[SunnyExpat]

No, very low carb is not dangerous for type 2 diabetics. It's actually quite good for type 2 diabetics. I reversed my type 2 and cured my NAFLD on a very low carb diet. And improved my lipid profile.

'diabetics'?
Plural?
Apart from yourself, do you have any links to long term studies for your no carb diet for type 2's?
Otherwise equally there are a few around the world who have no doubt managed high carbs for a few years, that could make the same claim on a sample size of 1?

 

[britishpub]

I think ironic usernames should be banned


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[SunnyExpat]

I think ironic usernames should be banned


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I reckon you should be allowed to stay.
Just because the Britishpub was probably one of my main causes of diabetes, I can't say you made me drink.

 

[Oldvatr]

Having read that link that Avacado Sevenfold posted in response to Kristen, i have to say that there certainly is a similaruty in style both in terms of use of english and posting content.





Edited by Mod to remove quoted post that has now been deleted.

 

[luna50]

If you had posted these examples before as your indicator and what you were trying to explain, you would not have had the response that you have.
In fact I do agree with you on most of your points.
However and there is always another point of view, I like quite a few T2s have intolerance to a lot of carbs that will give you your over 50 gms of carbs per day!
And I would recommend avoiding them or finding alternative portion size and foods that will give you approximate amounts that you need.
There are many posters that do have a good ketogenic lifestyle, and because you can't really group everybody in just one category, as in T2, posters have many differentials in the make up of their conditions.
It is very dangerous to advise posters that this is the only way to treat a condition,
It is better to recommend being open minded and try something different that may help with alleviating symptoms.
You never know, what very low carbing may help with, even if for a month or two!

I wrote the thread with all this information's.
But the moderator decides to remove that from the forum.

 

[Welshman1952]

Over the last couple of weeks I have been fascinated to see a rising number of criticisms of LCHF diets. Indeed, a few of the posts have been close to vitriole and the author has often gone on to debate the merits (or lack) of their favoured approach.

I guess these days I am older and more pragmatic. However, I do have a suggestion - maybe none of us has the answer. In fact, could I suggest that, most likely, we don't even know the right questions. So, I have a simple solution - if you don't like the LCHF diet then save yourself some pain ... and don't do it. Equally, if you dont like HCLF diets (or any other kind of diet) then stay away from them.

When I first came to this forum a couple of months ago I was feeling scared and confused. People here gave me a few options, shared their experience and gave me the freedom to find my own way. And my biggest learning? That there is no right way, that everyone is different and that it's OK to make mistakes.

Two months on and I'm still learning. But one thing is now clear - and that is that I may be the only example of wellness a still hurting diabetic sees. Following that, I feel I have a duty to "carry a message" of hope to newcomers - just as I was given when I first arrived. I can't tell anyone else what's right for them because half the time I don't know what's right for me. But I do know I can offer newcomers tolerance, understanding hope and support.

Maybe we should remember that before we rush to hit the reply button and add fuel to "debates" that seem to be more about bolstering egos and less about supporting each other.

 

[luna50]

Over the last couple of weeks I have been fascinated to see a rising number of criticisms of LCHF diets. Indeed, a few of the posts have been close to vitriole and the author has often gone on to debate the merits (or lack) of their favoured approach.

I guess these days I am older and more pragmatic. However, I do have a suggestion - maybe none of us has the answer. In fact, could I suggest that, most likely, we don't even know the right questions. So, I have a simple solution - if you don't like the LCHF diet then save yourself some pain ... and don't do it. Equally, if you dont like HCLF diets (or any other kind of diet) then stay away from them.

When I first came to this forum a couple of months ago I was feeling scared and confused. People here gave me a few options, shared their experience and gave me the freedom to find my own way. And my biggest learning? That there is no right way, that everyone is different and that it's OK to make mistakes.

Two months on and I'm still learning. But one thing is now clear - and that is that I may be the only example of wellness a still hurting diabetic sees. Following that, I feel I have a duty to "carry a message" of hope to newcomers - just as I was given when I first arrived. I can't tell anyone else what's right for them because half the time I don't know what's right for me. But I do know I can offer newcomers tolerance, understanding hope and support.

Maybe we should remember that before we rush to hit the reply button and add fuel to "debates" that seem to be more about bolstering egos and less about supporting each other.

You write:
"if you don't like the LCHF diet then save yourself some pain ... and don't do it. Equally, if you dont like HCLF diets (or any other kind of diet) then stay away from them."

We are here to exchange our opinions.
I can say the same: if you don't like to read about critics for the LCHF and HCLF diet then save yourself some pain ... and don't read about it and do not comment on that.
This forum is international. There are persons from all the world who read the threads and are not a members of this forum.
My intension is not to educate the people about the negative effects of this cetogenic, Atkins diet. My intension is to inform that there are people in this world who do not accept this diet. Many of this people are employed by the Health care systems .
Many of you give to me association as this forum is only for peoples who accept this Atkins diet.

I can not give to you a better answer and this.

 

[donnellysdogs]

I personally just worry about any eating lifestyle that isn't truly balancdd in all aspects of moderation of including meat and veg.
I was a low carber for best part of 40 years. I have good diabetes control and lack of the complications but have significant other illnesses. Was this due to long term lower carb? I don't know. My colon is knackered (not due to diabetes or opoids).. And now my stomach...and also breast cancer...
I have had to eat smoothies and soups until recently and this then caused my potassium to jump hugely... Fortunately I can now eat very limited "real" food again... But I do wonder how much is my genes or my eating..

I main wonders are for people relying upon one source of food such as mostly meat on a long term basis although I know vegetarians can live healthily... It may just be my bad genes, just like coeliacs or persons with ulcerative colitis. My other worry comes from persons that are only informed about sugars... Have met a T2 this week that was just told to reduce sugars he has-no mention of carbs or type of carbs...or to look at packets for info if buying packaged foods..

Not T2 but still concerned that people don't end up like me..

 

[SunnyExpat]

I find a balanced, calorie controlled mediterranean diet, with healthy non saturated oil works best for me.

But it is interesting to see all points of view on the discussion forum, so I'm more than happy to see it open to discussion, rather than closed to different ideas.
As you say, there are downsides, as well as upsides.

 

[Simon84]

My intension is not to educate the people about the negative effects of this cetogenic, Atkins diet. My intension is to inform that there are people in this world who do not accept this diet.

Yeah I think we get that by now!

 

[Welshman1952]

@luna50 Firstly, you are wrong to assume that people on this forum accept the Atkins diet - some do, others do not. As a vegan, I would struggle with many of its precepts so I choose to avoid it. Is it wrong or bad? I would never be so presumptuous to assume that I could answer that question.

I see you have determined that your role on this forum is to "inform" the members. I wish you well, but I would suggest that many people come here to identify, share and gain strength from our common experience. If your agenda is to place yourself above this, you may find yourself occasionally at odds with others.

For my part, I have better things to do with my time than argue. I have no pressing need to convince others that my way works, nor do I want to be "informed" of the error of my ways. My BGs are well within range so it works for me and I have no desire to market my approach as a "cure all" for other diabetics. It is for that reason that I shall heed your advice and henceforth studiously avoid reading or commenting on your future debates.

 

[JohnEGreen]

As a vegan

I thought you were Welsh. See @luna50 you are wrong this is not an international forum it's interstellar .

 

[Oldvatr]

Yeah I think we get that by now!

I think the problem Luna50 is having is with a ketogenic diet. Apparently according to her a low carb diet with carbs 0--50g per day is ok, but a ketogenic diet with this low level of carbs is deemed fatal to us T2DM (as per her Edition 12 of the Bible of Endocrinology). We can argue as much as we like aboit how this info will be outdated by recent research studies, to no avail. We can describe our own personal journeys and how we have had significant personal success, but it matters not. It goes against the advice she is getting from the official textbooks, so we are wrong in all respects. Unless we accept the word of ancient texts (65 years old) then we will never communicate successfully with Luna50 who is following a rigid agenda laid out by those tablets of stone.

So this is another WHY to add to this thread. I have not seen anything in this thread or the other thread that went off the rails that will change my mind about my diet. No new info has been presemted, so I have lost the will to join in any further here. It is like the Labour Party - all infighting and going nowhere.

 

[ickihun]

You write:
"if you don't like the LCHF diet then save yourself some pain ... and don't do it. Equally, if you dont like HCLF diets (or any other kind of diet) then stay away from them."

We are here to exchange our opinions.
I can say the same: if you don't like to read about critics for the LCHF and HCLF diet then save yourself some pain ... and don't read about it and do not comment on that.
This forum is international. There are persons from all the world who read the threads and are not a members of this forum.
My intension is not to educate the people about the negative effects of this cetogenic, Atkins diet. My intension is to inform that there are people in this world who do not accept this diet. Many of this people are employed by the Health care systems .
Many of you give to me association as this forum is only for peoples who accept this Atkins diet.

I can not give to you a better answer and this.

Yes. But you have it all wrong.
You are trying to educate us on something which isn't lchf. Atkins is different.
Go remind yourself of those differences please. Then come back.
Our bodies and blood test don't lie.
The proof in there for all to see.
Unfortunately you are not alone in misunderstanding the lchf way of life.
I did and made a goid attempt at it. Then I tweeked it but made my cholesterol go higher. Now I'm tweaking again. I will get there. And once I do, no doctors or specialist can argue with weight loss, less insulin/meds and better blood results, all round.
My body, my decision.
There are dangers out there crossing a road so stop making people soft and insecure. If you understand diabetes so well you wouldnt be deliberately agitating people with your controversial debate. We need to be as stress free as possible. Get it?

 

[luna50]

If I may say Latin "Quod hominem tot sententie", Translated from my modest knowledge for the English language, it says: "There are so many opinions as there are humans". But if we are humans and civilised, then we all accept the human rights of speech, as an exception if we live in the totality society and there we must remember the latin sentence " Cave ab homine unius libri" .

My arguments all of them are the reason from the modern science and not the conspirator theories.

I do not attack the persons with different opinion and my, I only inform what is my opinion, substantiated on scientific research. I look on the biochemical processes that happened if the organism has huge amounts of fatty acids in the blood vessels. Many members say that theirs blood test show low amount of cholesterol. It is fine, but I have only this words and not more, because I know what the livers mitochondrial beta-oxidation mean. Ask your physician for this process.

My information's are not intended to put down people who du not accept my opinion.

The Low-Carb diet : » Low carb (ketogenic) 0-50g carbohydrate per day, is the Dr. Atkins diet and this is dangerous for persons with T2DM.

You can find it in the Atkins book " DIABETESREVOLUTION".

 

[Lamont D]

My information's are not intended to put down people who du not accept my opinion.

The Low-Carb diet : » Low carb (ketogenic) 0-50g carbohydrate per day, is the Dr. Atkins diet and this is dangerous for persons with T2DM.

You can find it in the Atkins book " DIABETESREVOLUTION".

Again, I will give you my example.

I am permanently in ketosis!

I am on a very low carb lifestyle diet, that is sanctioned by my medical team!

It is and has never been the 'Atkins diet'

There is far more to my lifestyle than the Atkins. Atkins is a short, sharp reduction in carbs.

My lifestyle is for life and far more sustainable than the Atkins diet!

I don't know Latin!

I would be dead on your scientific evidence!

My last word!

Amen!

 

[Oldvatr]

If I may say Latin "Quod hominem tot sententie", Translated from my modest knowledge for the English language, it says: "There are so many opinions as there are humans". But if we are humans and civilised, then we all accept the human rights of speech, as an exception if we live in the totality society and there we must remember the latin sentence " Cave ab homine unius libri" .

My arguments all of them are the reason from the modern science and not the conspirator theories.

I do not attack the persons with different opinion and my, I only inform what is my opinion, substantiated on scientific research. I look on the biochemical processes that happened if the organism has huge amounts of fatty acids in the blood vessels. Many members say that theirs blood test show low amount of cholesterol. It is fine, but I have only this words and not more, because I know what the livers mitochondrial beta-oxidation mean. Ask your physician for this process.

My information's are not intended to put down people who du not accept my opinion.

The Low-Carb diet : » Low carb (ketogenic) 0-50g carbohydrate per day, is the Dr. Atkins diet and this is dangerous for persons with T2DM.

You can find it in the Atkins book " DIABETESREVOLUTION".

I think the following is close to what you are trying to bring to our attention

Mechanism of mitochondrial dysfunction. Excess intake of nutrients, including overloaded FFAs or hyperglycemia conditions, increases ROS production and reduces mitochondrial biogenesis, causing mitochondrial dysfunction

Please note that both overloaded FFAs or hyperglycemia can lead to this condiion, and one reason why I use a ketogenic diet is to remove one of these triggers (hyperglycemia).

The full report can be read at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2963150/


Th only description for overloaded FFA I can find is a method of preparation of ethelial cells in vitro to produce Giant FFA for use in clinical studies of lipidemia in rodents. This is a laboratory mechanism for inducing an extra fatty blood profile using bovine FFA. I have now seen several studies into artheriosclerosis that uses this method.
The use of this method to emulate an in vivo condition in humans is not in my mind justified.

I have searched the web quite deeply, and cannot find any report that links high fat intake to FFA overload in humans, and the only one that linked FFA to CVD only linked FFA to high energy intake, not high fat intake, and this could be high carb not high fat.

The plasma level of FFA is regulated by the body, Obesity raises this level as does stress, So again, a good reason for using a diet that works. Another point I make is that although Luna has raised this as cvidence to support her point, it has nothing to do with Carb intake at all - it is the fat burning pathway she is describing as being affected.

 

[KevinPotts]

If I may say Latin "Quod hominem tot sententie", Translated from my modest knowledge for the English language, it says: "There are so many opinions as there are humans". But if we are humans and civilised, then we all accept the human rights of speech, as an exception if we live in the totality society and there we must remember the latin sentence " Cave ab homine unius libri" .

My arguments all of them are the reason from the modern science and not the conspirator theories.

I do not attack the persons with different opinion and my, I only inform what is my opinion, substantiated on scientific research. I look on the biochemical processes that happened if the organism has huge amounts of fatty acids in the blood vessels. Many members say that theirs blood test show low amount of cholesterol. It is fine, but I have only this words and not more, because I know what the livers mitochondrial beta-oxidation mean. Ask your physician for this process.

My information's are not intended to put down people who du not accept my opinion.

The Low-Carb diet : » Low carb (ketogenic) 0-50g carbohydrate per day, is the Dr. Atkins diet and this is dangerous for persons with T2DM.

You can find it in the Atkins book " DIABETESREVOLUTION".

I do feel you doth protest too much!

There are numerous clinical trials and excellent science based narratives such as "The Art And Science of Low Carb Living" - Phinney et al.

Have you read any of this material?


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[luna50]

Again, I will give you my example.

I am permanently in ketosis!

I am on a very low carb lifestyle diet, that is sanctioned by my medical team!

It is and has never been the 'Atkins diet'

There is far more to my lifestyle than the Atkins. Atkins is a short, sharp reduction in carbs.

My lifestyle is for life and far more sustainable than the Atkins diet!

I don't know Latin!

I would be dead on your scientific evidence!

My last word!

Amen!

It means: "Beware from the man who have only one book" it is a proverb.
Moreover you do not have T2DM.

 

[tim2000s]

I look on the biochemical processes that happened if the organism has huge amounts of fatty acids in the blood vessels. Many members say that theirs blood test show low amount of cholesterol. It is fine, but I have only this words and not more, because I know what the livers mitochondrial beta-oxidation mean.

Luna, mitochondrial beta-oxidation is the process by which ATP (the body's energy source) is liberated from Free Fatty Acids.