There are many "WHY"

[Oldvatr]

It means: "Beware from the man who have only one book" it is a proverb.
Moreover you do not have T2DM.

But surely the same principles apply? Ketosis is ketosis and has the same pathways even for non diabetics. Why are you restricting your view just to T2D? By your earlier postings, anyone on a carb input of <10g/day is at risk? I mean Atkins is for all,

 

[tim2000s]

The plasma level of FFA is regulated by the body, Obesity raises this level as does stress, So again, a good reason for using a diet that works. Another point I make is that although Luna has raised this as cvidence to support her point, it has nothing to do with Carb intake at all - it is the fat burning pathway she is describing as being affected.

To add to that, Insulin is used by the body to limit the release of FFAs and as insulin resistance increases in type 2 diabetes, so the ability to regulate FFAs is reduced. Typically this is an issue more in someone who does not have a lipid adapted metabolism.

 

[luna50]

I think the following is close to what you are trying to bring to our attention

Mechanism of mitochondrial dysfunction. Excess intake of nutrients, including overloaded FFAs or hyperglycemia conditions, increases ROS production and reduces mitochondrial biogenesis, causing mitochondrial dysfunction

Please note that both overloaded FFAs or hyperglycemia can lead to this condiion, and one reason why I use a ketogenic diet is to remove one of these triggers (hyperglycemia).

The full report can be read at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2963150/


Th only description for overloaded FFA I can find is a method of preparation of ethelial cells in vitro to produce Giant FFA for use in clinical studies of lipidemia in rodents. This is a laboratory mechanism for inducing an extra fatty blood profile using bovine FFA. I have now seen several studies into artheriosclerosis that uses this method.
The use of this method to emulate an in vivo condition in humans is not in my mind justified.

I have searched the web quite deeply, and cannot find any report that links high fat intake to FFA overload in humans, and the only one that linked FFA to CVD only linked FFA to high energy intake, not high fat intake, and this could be high carb not high fat.

The plasma level of FFA is regulated by the body, Obesity raises this level as does stress, So again, a good reason for using a diet that works. Another point I make is that although Luna has raised this as cvidence to support her point, it has nothing to do with Carb intake at all - it is the fat burning pathway she is describing as being affected.

The mitochondria is an organelle in the cells, like the liver, kidney, lungs and more by the mammals. This organelle is used for different purposes.
One off them is the process of metabolism who use this energy factory with the name mitochondria is the TCA cycle and the Biological Respiration Chain. For a proper function of this processes there must be a balains in the amounts of Glucose and the Fat. This can be read from the link:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2963150/.

A fragment from this link:
"Glucose and lipid metabolism are largely dependent on mitochondria to generate energy in cells. Thereby, when nutrient oxidation is inefficient, the ratio of ATP production/oxygen consumption is low, leading to an increased production of superoxide anions."
Understanding of the mitochondrial function about the metabolism of the nutrients , it is necessary a knowledge about how the TCA cycle and the BRC works.
This is little technical, but it can not be explanted on different way.

 

[busydiabeticmum]

I love the lchf diet! I had a hba1c of 85 keytones and protein in my urine... now i am healthy, no keytones or protein in my urine and hba1c last was 48 with a 1 month over lap. My blood sugars are stable and are now rarely above 6 after eating. I am on an extremely low carb diet and low callorie. I eat once a day. The way i see it is i am giving my beta cells a rest where they will be able to recover from the abuse, i see it as being intolerant to carbs (same as people with cialic are intolerant to gluten or people who are lactose intolerant) all the others are told to avoid what they are intolerant to yet we are told to eat it more!!! That doesnt make sense to me.

My body cope well with extreme low carb diet though that is just the way my body works, i know others dont need to go so low but that is the way their body works.

My gp agrees with me (i know shock) as we can see the results... for me i can see the results and so nothing else will persuade me otherwise... no matter how many phds they have i have the evidence and live with it... not them.

 

[Indy51]

It means: "Beware from the man who have only one book" it is a proverb.

Exactly!

 

[tim2000s]

One off them is the process of metabolism who use this energy factory with the name mitochondria is the TCA cycle and the Biological Respiration Chain. For a proper function of this processes there must be a blains in the amounts of Glucose and the Fat. This can be read from the link:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2963150/.

That's not something that I took from it. That paper essentially says that Mitochondrial Dysfunction leads to the issues that relate to Type 2 Diabetes, and goes on to conclude:

"Excess nutrients or sedentary lifestyle cause various pathological conditions that are associated with mitochondrial dysfunction. Genetic factors, reduced mitochondrial biogenesis, increased oxidative stress, and aging may be causal factors for abnormalities in mitochondrial dysfunction. The resultant mitochondrial dysfunction, in turn, increases ROS production, resulting in a vicious cycle.

"The cause-and-effect relationship between reduced mitochondrial function and excess intramyocellular lipid content is an area ripe for investigation."

Which is extremely inconclusive.

 

[catherinecherub]

@luna50,
It would help the debate if you were to tell us how you manage your diabetes, what a typical days menu is, what medications/insulin you take and your height, weight and your latest blood test results. (cholesterol, HBA1c, Kidney and Liver function)
It could be an option that others can consider if your stats are favourable.

 

[luna50]

To add to that, Insulin is used by the body to limit the release of FFAs and as insulin resistance increases in type 2 diabetes, so the ability to regulate FFAs is reduced. Typically this is an issue more in someone who does not have a lipid adapted metabolism.

Insulin do not works by T2DM as here Tim describe.
Insulin has impaired function by T2DM. Insulin can not inhibit the liver to make emission of glucose. It is the process in the liver with the name "Gluconeogenesis" who mobilize the FA to be included in the beta-oxidations where the fat is catabolized . If there is not glucose in the blood then the TCA cycle and the BRC do not work properly. There must be a balance between fat and glucose.
I recommend to Tim, to read about the TCA and BRC to find out how the mitochondrial process is by the nutrients metabolism.
The nature has taken consideration about the situation of starvation.
The extreme low intake of Carbs is to activate an artificial starvations process and not more.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

Insulin do not works by T2DM as here Tim describe.
Insulin has impaired function by T2DM. Insulin can not inhibit the liver to make emission of glucose. It is the process in the liver with the name "Gluconeogenesis" who mobilize the FA to be included in the beta-oxidations where the fat is catabolized . If there is not glucose in the blood then the TCA cycle and the BRC do not work properly. There must be a balance between fat and glucose.
I recommend to Tim, to read about the TCA and BRC to find out how the mitochondrial process is by the nutrients metabolism.
The nature has taken consideration about the situation of starvation.
The extreme low intake of Carbs is to activate an artificial starvations process and not more.

I can assure you that I'm not starving and there is sufficient glucose in my blood, despite not eating any carbs.

 

[tim2000s]

If there is not glucose in the blood then the TCA cycle and the BRC do not work properly.

I'm not so sure about that. The Krebs cycle inputs are different under lipid and glucose metabolisms, but I've seen no evidence that says that without glucose in the diet, damage is caused. Indeed, under a ketotic state, the body produces enough glycogen via gluconeogenesis to maintain muscle glycogen stores at 60%-70% and maintain blood glucose levels of around 3.7mmol/l.

 

[luna50]

@luna50,
It would help the debate if you were to tell us how you manage your diabetes, what a typical days menu is, what medications/insulin you take and your height, weight and your latest blood test results. (cholesterol, HBA1c, Kidney and Liver function)
It could be an option that others can consider if your stats are favourable.

According to the wish from the moderator Catherinecherub, here is the data from my health state.
My days menu can be like this:
On the morning a 50 gram flake of oatmeal with milk and a cop of coffee,. sometime beckon and egg and a cop of coffee.
To dinner I eat a 100 gram meat of different sort, different vegetables, rice, potato, pasta,
As dessert an apple, pear, strawberry, orange and another fruits.
On the evening, two soft boiled egg with Tabasco and bread and two pancake with jam,
different sort of soup's with bread.

I am T2DM on insulin and the medication for .hypertension, cholesterol and metformin.
The names are: Lantus, Cozaar, Crestor and Metformin. Moreover for the moment I use vitamin C, Ca and Mg. I have been T2DM for about 30 year and I use only 8 IE insulin / day on the morning.
My height and my weight are 1.72 m and 71 kg, i.e. this data results in my BMI as 24 kg/m2.
My BMR (The Basal Metabolic Rate) is 71 x 24 is about 1,700 kCal. or about 7,000 kJoul.
My latest blood test results are as follow:
Total Cholesterol 3.4
LDL 1.8
HBA1c 41
ALAT,P 21
GFR(Kidney) 72 mL/min

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

I prefer to not need medications. I suspect a low carb high fat diet would eliminate or reduce your need for those meds. You should try it. You don't need to be ketogenic to get the benefits of LCHF.

 

[luna50]

UOTE="Oldvatr, post: 1193232, member: 196898"]But surely the same principles apply? Ketosis is ketosis and has the same pathways even for non diabetics. Why are you restricting your view just to T2D? By your earlier postings, anyone on a carb input of <10g/day is at risk? I mean Atkins is for all,[/QUOTE]

Please read the two links from Dark Horse and you have the answer.
For the not diabetic they will get the problems with Atkins LC diet i.e. 5 -10 carbs/day.
If the person do not die from hypoglycaemia then he will die from atherosclerosis
It is very complicated to make debate in this forum about the biochemical processes by the TCA cycle.
We exchange opinions and I have understud what is your opinion and I have no more to add.
Thanks for your participation.
https://jdmdonline.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40200-016-0235-9
http://www.gponline.com/high-fat-diet-raises-complication-risk-diabetes/article/1122869

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

I do find it amusing that luna50's way of eating requires 4 meds. Mine doesn't require any for me.

 

[britishpub]

I'm not sure what will kill me the soonest.

Eating Low Carb or reading this thread


Sent from my iPhone using DCUK Forum mobile app

 

[KevinPotts]

@luna50, you speak with such conviction, are you a medic, healthcare professional
or scientist by profession or training?


Sent from my iPhone using DCUK Forum

 

[Lamont D]

Please read the two links from Dark Horse and you have the answer.
For the not diabetic they will get the problems with Atkins LC diet i.e. 5 -10 carbs/day.
If the person do not die from hypoglycaemia then he will die from i.e. atherosclerosis
It is very complicated to make debate in this forum about the biochemical processes by the TCA cycle.
We exchange opinions and I have understud what is your opinion and I have no more to add.
Thanks for your participation.
https://jdmdonline.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40200-016-0235-9
http://www.gponline.com/high-fat-diet-raises-complication-risk-diabetes/article/1122869

Then why aren't I in my coffin?

My metabolism should have seen me off, at least five years ago, because of my hypo hell.
Then two years ago when I literally didn't eat any carbs except from fresh meat and some salad vegetables.

A lot of diabetics and other metabolic conditions, suffer from the same imbalance in insulin as in insulin resistance and glucose disorders, hyperinsulinaemia for one, hypoglycaemia, as in gastric dumping! Et al!

What applies to T2, can also apply to other conditions!

@luna50 you need to open your mind to what the body can achieve without a knee-jerk reaction because of a text book, humans are so adaptable.

There is an English saying, no Latin!

Don't believe the written word!
Fiction is also using the same language!

Also,

One man's fact, is another man's fiction!

 

[Totto]

My intension is not to educate the people about the negative effects of this cetogenic, Atkins diet. My intension is to inform that there are people in this world who do not accept this diet. Many of this people are employed by the Health care systems .

Don't we know there are a lot of people who still think starch is essential. We also know that many HCP are to found among them. We don't need to be informed about how HPC looks on diabetics and diet. We already know it.

Mind you, HPC with diabetes may a different view.

 

[Totto]

According to the wish from the moderator Catherinecherub, here is the data from my health state.
My days menu can be like this:
On the morning a 50 gram flake of oatmeal with milk and a cop of coffee,. sometime beckon and egg and a cop of coffee.
To dinner I eat a 100 gram meat of different sort, different vegetables, rice, potato, pasta,
As dessert an apple, pear, strawberry, orange and another fruits.
On the evening, two soft boiled egg with Tabasco and bread and two pancake with jam,
different sort of soup's with bread.

I am T2DM on insulin and the medication for .hypertension, cholesterol and metformin.
The names are: Lantus, Cozaar, Crestor and Metformin. Moreover for the moment I use vitamin C, Ca and Mg. I have been T2DM for about 30 year and I use only 8 IE insulin / day on the morning.
My height and my weight are 1.72 m and 71 kg, i.e. this data results in my BMI as 24 kg/m2.
My BMR (The Basal Metabolic Rate) is 71 x 24 is about 1,700 kCal. or about 7,000 kJoul.
My latest blood test results are as follow:
Total Cholesterol 3.4
LDL 1.8
HBA1c 41
ALAT,P 21
Glomerulaer filtr.(Kidney) 72 mL/min
For the moment I do not know all this names on English.

With that kind of diet I'm sure I'd be on similar medication. But as I follow the LCHF way of eating I'm happy to say I have no need for any meds, apart from thyroid hormones. Myy HbA1c is 32 and my cholesterol is perfect.

 

[Jaylee]

I do find it amusing that luna50's way of eating requires 4 meds. Mine doesn't require any for me.

I'll stick my neck out & suggest the OPs "get out of jail free card" on the diet, could be the 8units of lantus..?