There are many "WHY"

[SunnyExpat]

There is actually a good summary of why we are specifically evolved to eat mostly carbs, in the form of plants, here.
I agree you get enough fat and protein from plants to maintain life, but they're primarily carbs.

http://www.ecologos.org/anatomy.htm

 

[hankjam]

To Lonellysdogs
If you do not eat carbs, then your organism do not get the essential micro nutrients that are a part of the nutrient who contends carbs.
I am sorry to read about your different disorder's, but you can get answer by your physician.
Your T1DM is different then T2DM. You are a long term patient and many with T1DM who I know have a lot of problems.
I am managing my problems with the T2DM on this way, because I know it is right to do that on this way. The organism must have a homeostasis between the carbs and the fat. To eat only proteins and fat it is an artificial simulation of starvation. If this has been normal, then the nature evolution has for a long time ago solved this problem.

http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-are-micronutrients-definition-types-foods-importance.html

hold on a moment, a Carb is C, O and H, with no essential micro nutrients attached... they maybe associated with the food item but can be obtained from other, non-carb, items.

 

[Simon84]

hold on a moment, a Carb is C, O and H, with no essential micro nutrients attached... they maybe associated with the food item but can be obtained from other, non-carb, items.

And why brekkie cereals are fortified with various vitamins as on their own they're just cardboard really.

 

[luna50]

I wonder how your textbook covers the situation of the inuits (and similar mono nutrient societies)who live perfectly healthy lives just eating whale fat and seal blubber for most of the year, and who have no access to the pancakes and jam that you find so healthy (which I would not). Yes ketosis is a starvation mode for the body, but we are equipped to survive on it. We apparently evolved from a non carb diet in the first place, and it is only in the last millenium that agriculture provided mankind with an alternate source of nutrients. Most people following an LC diet will not be deficient in micronutrients and there have been many discussions on this forum about possible supplementation if required. As you are on Metformin, are you supplementing with B12 and D3? You should, you know. Your statins will be depleting you of Co-Q10 enzyme too, Maybe your diet is lacking folate or iron? or calcium (with D3 and K2) Are you so sure your textbooks are telling you the complete truth? Or the most up to date?

You are obviously well read, but I wonder if you really understand your own condition? You do not seem to understand mine or Nosher's or Donellysdogs. It is clear that you have endogenic insulin, and I could suggest that if you tried low carb diet yourself then you could possibly stop the insulin completely, but I won't suggest it since it will fall on deaf ears. Similarly what you are pontificating is also falling on increasingly deaf ears.

Your analogy of the water pipe is cute, but it is the way we were designed to operate. The latest research points to the damage being due to oxidised sLDL particles i,e, cholesterol, not FFA's in the cells. This research also shows that the damage to the LDL is worse when there is a high fat, high carb diet aka Eatwell#2 and ADA diet. The Low Fat diet is also showing higher mortality than the LCHF diet,

The other thing that you are choosing to ignore is that one of the purposes of ketogenic diet is to force our body to burn adipose fat , and by doing so to reduce the effects of NAFLD (fatty liver) which we T2;s tend to be prone to. For same reason we reduce fructose from our diets to also reduce NAFLD and insulin resistance, You are obviously still consuming large proportion of fructose yourself, so are you aware of the danger your diet is placing you in?

By a small simple change in my own diet, I can choose to switch in or out of ketosis, as I can choose what level of fat intake I use. I am in control of it, so I am not worried, I am not starving. I doubt if anyone reading this thread is starving, but some will be craving carbs which is a different matter.

For a 10 min. ago, sow I an English program on the television about two identical twins without DM and doctors as profession , who has participated in an experiment about High Carb and LCHF diet.
The test result has been very interesting.
The twin on HC has improved the insulin secretion and get better body balance.
The twin on the LCHF has been a catastrophic. His mean BG has put up close to the prediabetic level and his brain function has been affected.
I suggest you to request the BBC to transmit it in England.
I can see you do not understand what is the point off my hypothetical pipe analogy.
I am sorry,You are not alone with that behaviour.
I like to write a letter about the path- way of the Fat from the mouth up to the lypocyt in the adipose tissues.
Moreover please be serious if you like I should answer on your letters, and do not write all this nonsense about the books. Think about where from learn the medical students on the faculties. It is not from the information's from the internet.

 

[Jaylee]

For a 10 min. ago, sow I an English program on the television about two identical twins without DM and doctors as profession , who has participated in an experiment about High Carb and LCHF diet.
The test result has been very interesting.
The twin on HC has improved the insulin secretion and get better body balance.
The twin on the LCHF has been a catastrophic. His mean BG has put up close to the prediabetic level and his brain function has been affected.
I suggest you to request the BBC to transmit it in England.
I can see you do not understand what is the point off my hypothetical pipe analogy.
I am sorry,You are not alone with that behaviour.
I like to write a letter about the path- way of the Fat from the mouth up to the lypocyt in the adipose tissues.
Moreover please be serious if you like I should answer on your letters, and do not write all this nonsense about the books. Think about where from learn the medical students on the faculties. It is not from the information's from the internet.

What is the name of this BBC program? As a UK resident & a "licence fee" payer I should be able to find a "repeat"/rerun on iPlayer...
It would stand to reason the HC twin would have increased insulin secretion.
But the LC twin close to pre diabetic??

Twins may & can look similar.. But they are not technically "clones".

 

[catherinecherub]

Sugar versus Fat?

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

For a 10 min. ago, sow I an English program on the television about two identical twins without DM and doctors as profession , who has participated in an experiment about High Carb and LCHF diet.
The test result has been very interesting.
The twin on HC has improved the insulin secretion and get better body balance.
The twin on the LCHF has been a catastrophic. His mean BG has put up close to the prediabetic level and his brain function has been affected.
I suggest you to request the BBC to transmit it in England.
I can see you do not understand what is the point off my hypothetical pipe analogy.
I am sorry,You are not alone with that behaviour.
I like to write a letter about the path- way of the Fat from the mouth up to the lypocyt in the adipose tissues.
Moreover please be serious if you like I should answer on your letters, and do not write all this nonsense about the books. Think about where from learn the medical students on the faculties. It is not from the information's from the internet.

If your way of eating is so healthy, why do you need 4 different meds?

 

[Oldvatr]

For a 10 min. ago, sow I an English program on the television about two identical twins without DM and doctors as profession , who has participated in an experiment about High Carb and LCHF diet.
The test result has been very interesting.
The twin on HC has improved the insulin secretion and get better body balance.
The twin on the LCHF has been a catastrophic. His mean BG has put up close to the prediabetic level and his brain function has been affected.
I suggest you to request the BBC to transmit it in England.
I can see you do not understand what is the point off my hypothetical pipe analogy.
I am sorry,You are not alone with that behaviour.
I like to write a letter about the path- way of the Fat from the mouth up to the lypocyt in the adipose tissues.
Moreover please be serious if you like I should answer on your letters, and do not write all this nonsense about the books. Think about where from learn the medical students on the faculties. It is not from the information's from the internet.

On the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. I have not seen proper discussion from you. All I have seen is a reference to FFA in mitochondria leading to loss of elasticity, and the assertion that fat in the bloodstream leads to clogged arteries, which is not what the evidence from Post Mortems is showing. But not rmch more.

If you are a medical student then I wish you well in your studies, but I hope you manage to get a better understanding before they let you loose on actual patients. If you are not a medical student, then please save your money by not wasting it on expensive textbooks. Just because they are 'officially recognised', does not necessarily make them right. I get the feeling that the interpretation you place on the info is (a) outdated, and (b) no longer considered valid. There are many eminent endocrinologists in Universities around the globe that are finding that the older models of lipedemia no longer line up in a nice neat row as they were previously thought to do. I would not myself place much faith now on a textbook first published in 1916. I actually prefer to place my trust in the work done pre 1900 with the Banting Diet, which was a primary control for diabetic patients before insulin was developed by a relative of his. At least it was demonstratably a working hypothesis.

 

[Jaylee]

Sugar versus Fat?

Thanks Catherine.. It was surprisingly easy to google.. Just thought I'd add it's in the Horizon series of programs..

 

[luna50]

Sugar versus Fat?

Thank you for helping.

 

[Nickglanf]

Sugar versus Fat?

Thanks, this is very informative.

 

[Oldvatr]

For a 10 min. ago, sow I an English program on the television about two identical twins without DM and doctors as profession , who has participated in an experiment about High Carb and LCHF diet.
The test result has been very interesting.
The twin on HC has improved the insulin secretion and get better body balance.
The twin on the LCHF has been a catastrophic. His mean BG has put up close to the prediabetic level and his brain function has been affected.
I suggest you to request the BBC to transmit it in England.
I can see you do not understand what is the point off my hypothetical pipe analogy.
I am sorry,You are not alone with that behaviour.
I like to write a letter about the path- way of the Fat from the mouth up to the lypocyt in the adipose tissues.
Moreover please be serious if you like I should answer on your letters, and do not write all this nonsense about the books. Think about where from learn the medical students on the faculties. It is not from the information's from the internet.

I have viewed the said program material, and I have some comments to make on it
Firstly, neither test subject was diabetic. but no tests were done to see if either was already developing IR or glucose intolernce before the trial started.

Then they did not take note as far as I could tell of the true fasting bgl levels at the start.

During the hill climb, the fat diet guy was given a pat of butter at the start and halfway up, but was not given time for that to be metabolised. Th sugar gel given to the carb subject would be more immediate to take effecr. Also the LCHF guy may not have become what we term here as 'fat adapted' so may bave still been in glucogenic mode rather than ketogenic mode.

The stock exchange test was not a valid test. They should have done a pre test run to evaluate their performance before the diets began. Some people develop those necessary skills easily, others do not, and being twins does not guarantee that they both had the same mental ability normally. The other point is that when one starts a low carb diet, many suffer Carb Flu and brain fog as they adjust, and since this stock test was early on in the trial, there may be a simple explanation. The test should be repeated to see if there has actually been long term damage or if it was just temporary before jumping to conclusions about it being catastrophic. Finally the nutritionist sais it was brain loss due to low glucose levels, but they do not appear to have done the test to see if it was near hypo levels, which I as a diabetic would naturally do if I felt muzzyheaded.

At the end of the trial, they were fully assessed, part of which was a GTT. later on in the day they took bgl reading, and it was raised, but then they appear to class it as an FBGL, which it clearly wasn't. The measurement of body fat composition is a magic art at the best of times, and can vary from differences in sweat levels on the feet.and other fators such as low sodium levels (i.e. it measures the current passing between the feet and hence the conductivity of the body.) My scales vary quite considerably if I put more pressure on one foot than the other. So they had a sexy machine and a sexy answer, but it is not necessarily correct to draw an instant conclusion from.

I think the editors of the program were too quick to make conclusions. There are holes in the test method and they do not fully understand how the diet works.

 

[britishpub]

Horizon has become very "dumbed down" recently.

It used to be a serious program covering serious issues, but not anymore.


Sent from my iPhone using DCUK Forum mobile app

 

[luna50]

If your way of eating is so healthy, why do you need 4 different meds?

I need medication because I am a T2DM and not on the onset.
T2DM is a progressive disease and some one say it is a silent killer.
I am insulin resistant and my C-peptide is ( 0.170) below the minimum border in the tolerated interval and my GAD65 is below 4.
The disease T2DM make the insulin (endogenous and exogenous) activities on the different types off functions impaired. Insulin is impaired by the liver function to inhibit the emission of glucose and it is impaired by the endothelia cells in the capillaries' to stimulate secretion of NO (Nitrogen Oxide) as a vasodilator agent. That is the reason why some persons with T2DM has problems with hypertension.
I have this problems and I must use this medications against the hypertension. Moreover I use the Crestor as cholesterol levering medication for preventive purpose. I use the Hypo Loc as a beta-narrowing medication. It slows the heart rhythm. My pulse on the morning is about 55 Hz. My blood pressure is about sys.120 and diast. 63 mmHg. Metformin I use to compensate for the missing insulin's function by the liver. Some people has problems with the digestive system using metformin. Sometimes help to use metformin in small dose together with the meal and gradually raise the dose. One substitute for metformin is the alcohol. This "agent" inhibit effective the liver to produce glucose. But it is not rational using alcohol.

 

[Oldvatr]

What is the name of this BBC program? As a UK resident & a "licence fee" payer I should be able to find a "repeat"/rerun on iPlayer...
It would stand to reason the HC twin would have increased insulin secretion.
But the LC twin close to pre diabetic??

Twins may & can look similar.. But they are not technically "clones".

Possible liver dump? There are posts on the forum that show how to normalise after an LC type diet to restart glucogenesis in preparation for a GTT. I suspect they did not do this. I think it is something that they found out about with Atkins or Newcastle, but may well apply to other LC ketogenic diets.

 

[luna50]

I have viewed the said program material, and I have some comments to make on it
Firstly, neither test subject was diabetic. but no tests were done to see if either was already developing IR or glucose intolernce before the trial started.

Then they did not take note as far as I could tell of the true fasting bgl levels at the start.

During the hill climb, the fat diet guy was given a pat of butter at the start and halfway up, but was not given time for that to be metabolised. Th sugar gel given to the carb subject would be more immediate to take effecr. Also the LCHF guy may not have become what we term here as 'fat adapted' so may bave still been in glucogenic mode rather than ketogenic mode.

The stock exchange test was not a valid test. They should have done a pre test run to evaluate their performance before the diets began. Some people develop those necessary skills easily, others do not, and being twins does not guarantee that they both had the same mental ability normally. The other point is that when one starts a low carb diet, many suffer Carb Flu and brain fog as they adjust, and since this stock test was early on in the trial, there may be a simple explanation. The test should be repeated to see if there has actually been long term damage or if it was just temporary before jumping to conclusions about it being catastrophic. Finally the nutritionist sais it was brain loss due to low glucose levels, but they do not appear to have done the test to see if it was near hypo levels, which I as a diabetic would naturally do if I felt muzzyheaded.

At the end of the trial, they were fully assessed, part of which was a GTT. later on in the day they took bgl reading, and it was raised, but then they appear to class it as an FBGL, which it clearly wasn't. The measurement of body fat composition is a magic art at the best of times, and can vary from differences in sweat levels on the feet.and other fators such as low sodium levels (i.e. it measures the current passing between the feet and hence the conductivity of the body.) My scales vary quite considerably if I put more pressure on one foot than the other. So they had a sexy machine and a sexy answer, but it is not necessarily correct to draw an instant conclusion from.

I think the editors of the program were too quick to make conclusions. There are holes in the test method and they do not fully understand how the diet works.

This program is exactly what you demand about the proof for truth. The Popular science.
I do not know who can give you convincing factum.
Personally I prefer the relevant books and not the internet or the televisions programs.
My opinion is the program has been convincingly for me, because it has been very close to the
theories from the medical books.

 

[Oldvatr]

I need medication because I am a T2DM and not on the onset.
T2DM is a progressive disease and some one say it is a silent killer.
I am insulin resistant and my C-peptide is ( 0.170) below the minimum border in the tolerated interval and my GAD65 is below 4.
The disease T2DM make the insulin (endogenous and exogenous) activities on the different types off functions impaired. Insulin is impaired by the liver function to inhibit the emission of glucose and it is impaired by the endothelia cells in the capillaries' to stimulate secretion of NO (Nitrogen Oxide) as a vasodilator agent. That is the reason why some persons with T2DM has problems with hypertension.
I have this problems and I must use this medications against the hypertension. Moreover I use the Crestor as cholesterol levering medication for preventive purpose. I use the Hypo Loc as a beta-narrowing medication. It slows the heart rhythm. My pulse on the morning is about 55 Hz. My blood pressure is about sys.120 and diast. 63 mmHg. Metformin I use to compensate for the missing insulin's function by the liver. Some people has problems with the digestive system using metformin. Sometimes help to use metformin in small dose together with the meal and gradually raise the dose. One substitute for metformin is the alcohol. This "agent" inhibit effective the liver to produce glucose. But it is not rational using alcohol.

At long last you have posted something that I am able to agree with in the most part. However, I do disagree with your statement that T2D is a progressive disease that eventually kills.

That used to be the case, but one of the joys of this site is that we are seeing many people reducing their bgl back to levels below which complications are avoided, and many of us have succeeded in reducing or stopping the meds we take. Not only that, but the diet seems to be one that could be sustainable in the long term. So while we cannot claim a cure for T2D, we can at least slow it down dramatically.

Please do yourself a good favour, and look at an LC diet for yourself. There are several different ones, all discussed in the Forum with good tips and the necessary caveats and menu suggestions too. With a A1c of 41 that you posted, you are not far off where you may find the insulin is no longer necessary, just by changing diet. You do not need to go ketogenic if you are not needing to lose weight or reduce adipose fat, but reducing belly fat may well improve your IR (if you have any that is).

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

I need medication because I am a T2DM and not on the onset.
T2DM is a progressive disease and some one say it is a silent killer.
I am insulin resistant and my C-peptide is ( 0.170) below the minimum border in the tolerated interval and my GAD65 is below 4.
The disease T2DM make the insulin (endogenous and exogenous) activities on the different types off functions impaired. Insulin is impaired by the liver function to inhibit the emission of glucose and it is impaired by the endothelia cells in the capillaries' to stimulate secretion of NO (Nitrogen Oxide) as a vasodilator agent. That is the reason why some persons with T2DM has problems with hypertension.
I have this problems and I must use this medications against the hypertension. Moreover I use the Crestor as cholesterol levering medication for preventive purpose. I use the Hypo Loc as a beta-narrowing medication. It slows the heart rhythm. My pulse on the morning is about 55 Hz. My blood pressure is about sys.120 and diast. 63 mmHg. Metformin I use to compensate for the missing insulin's function by the liver. Some people has problems with the digestive system using metformin. Sometimes help to use metformin in small dose together with the meal and gradually raise the dose. One substitute for metformin is the alcohol. This "agent" inhibit effective the liver to produce glucose. But it is not rational using alcohol.

So you see no connection between your diet and your poor health that requires 5 different meds?

I also am a type 2 diabetic, but for me it did not progress. In fact, it regressed. I am on no meds and I have normal blood glucose levels.

At one point I was taking metformin and my doctor wanted to put me on a statin and a blood pressure lowering drug as well (I did not get those 2 prescriptions filled). Of course they also told me to eat like you do. And they told me type 2 diabetes was progressive.

After some investigating on the internet, I decided to try LCHF - the version that is very low carb that you say is unhealthy. Today, I am very healthy eating this way. An endocrinologist and my doctor said I do not need to be on any meds and I am not taking any meds any more.

You are not healthy eating your way and are on 5 meds. You fail to make a persuasive argument that your way of eating is healthy simply because you are not healthy.

Even if you think that a very low carb diet is unhealthy for a type 2 diabetic, why haven't you tried a moderately low carb diet?

 

[luna50]

At long last you have posted something that I am able to agree with in the most part. However, I do disagree with your statement that T2D is a progressive disease that eventually kills.

That used to be the case, but one of the joys of this site is that we are seeing many people reducing their bgl back to levels below which complications are avoided, and many of us have succeeded in reducing or stopping the meds we take. Not only that, but the diet seems to be one that could be sustainable in the long term. So while we cannot claim a cure for T2D, we can at least slow it down dramatically.

Please do yourself a good favour, and look at an LC diet for yourself. There are several different ones, all discussed in the Forum with good tips and the necessary caveats and menu suggestions too. With a A1c of 41 that you posted, you are not far off where you may find the insulin is no longer necessary, just by changing diet. You do not need to go ketogenic if you are not needing to lose weight or reduce adipose fat, but reducing belly fat may well improve your IR (if you have any that is).

Thank you for your recommendation, but I already use Low-Carb diet ( from 50g to 130g/day)
Please look on this. You can use it as "proof" for LCHF diet.


"There was an old person of Dean,

Who dined on one pea and a bean;

For he said, 'More than that,

Would make me to fat,

That curious old person of Dean."

One hundred Noncence Pictures and Rhymes.

Edward Lear.

 

[Simon84]

These analogies suck to be honest @the OP and I think I'd rather go for dietary advice from KFC's Colonel Sanders than any of your offerings if truth be told but good luck with your quest (Whatever that is).