Dr Jason Fung mauled by impeccable logic of Calorie Restriction fans...

[pixie1]

Hi Brunneria.

I'm a fully qualified nutritionist and I happend across this thread as it was linked to the critique of the original article.

My my interest is to stop the spread of misinformation on the topic. That somehow CICO is outdated or doesn't work.

I've worked with and continue to work with clients who are type 1 or type 2 diabetic and the spread of pseudoscience through mediums like this forum doesn't help people. It just confuses them further. Especially somewhere where people will actively come to see advice on help with their conditions.

That's pretty much all my interest. I'm not here to sell anything (or I'd have completed my profile) or have an axe to grind.

The fact is Low carb or LCHF diets work by getting people to eat less over time. They work for some and not others that much is true, but fundamentally work by the same rules as any other effective weight control diet, that is CICO.

Thought so. Why don't you review Dr Unwin, who ha treated thousand of diabetics successfully through LCHF, because mainstream view of management of diabetes was not working for his patients.

Just because you are a qualified nutritionalist does not make you an expert on diabetes. This is why you are ruffling a feathers amongst us.

 

[lucylocket61]

Completely agree. I've no idea if either of the two new members were genuine or trolls, we'll see if they hang around and build a track record or not. But supposing they're genuine? While they weren't particularly receptive to alternative views, those views were given fairly, ahem, robustly... To the uninitiated, that gives a false perception of our community here. I know there was integrity in every reply, but might we have driven away two new members?

to be fair, the two members were insulting and patronising from the outset, and the robust defences were a response to that.

 

[lucylocket61]

Understand that LCHF may work for many people, and certainly endocrinology isn't my specialty, if something like calorie restriction didn't work, then why would Avatar nutrition be almost completely successful across all users who stick to program?

avatar nutrition is no different from any other weight loss ideas. You can get the same or better advice on here for free. And at $20 a month, its not cheap either.

 

[pixie1]

Again you're showing your misunderstanding.

"Eating more" is a loose term.

Eating more what? Vegetables and lower calorie density foods? Sure. Eating more calories than they were beforehand? Unlikely.

Also the energy balance equation is not static.

If you "eat more" as in truly eat more calories, but it's of better composition - more protein, more macronutrients then often people feel better and move more too. Very often diet intervention also happens alongside other lifestyle changes, like better sleep and exercise, which also tip the balance to expending more calories.

This is wholly explainable and still conforms to the laws of thermodynamics.

As you know restricting carbs, because we diabetic and those who are pre diabetic have become insulin resistant.
By restricting carbs, this gives the pancreas a rest, doesn't need to produce too much insulin.
Carbs have to be replaced by fats for energy, this in turn we do not need to count or restrict calories, our system utilizes these calories and fats more efficiently.
We have all felt the effects of the results of this.
Doesn't matter how much research you try to off load.

The science we have and rely on. Is blood tests. It works for us.

 

[pixie1]

Nutritionist. Out of interest do you hold any qualifications that enable you to give out nutritional advice?

Your long term health depends on primarily maintaining a healthy bodyweight.

And my livelihood depends on helping people.

CICO is not a movement or a preference. Not some fad diet. It's established scientific consensus. As the saying goes, you're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. All diets work by creating an energy imbalance, as Anthony says this has been studied to death in metabolic wards.

The whole point, this forum is for diabetics. This makes us experts in our own condition. Most of us realised that both of you are not diabetics at all. Putting forward your own views band opinions based on research. Both of you are not listening, you are not the only ones who don't, many of us are here be cause people have followed or try to, but are hindered because of othere medical conditions. If you listen you would real use that Cisco is defunct.

I will not explain the reason why. Because its been already written down already. You both are so blinkered and narrow minded.

 

[Larissima]

I’d like to know why humans are the only creatures in the entire animal kingdom that [apparently] need a slide rule and a spreadsheet in order to not gain (or lose) weight

Because we are the only species that use a slide rule and spreadsheets to create food-like substances, hyperpalatable yet void of nutrients. It started with the invention of agriculture, but has intensified manyfold in the last 100 years, and logarithmically in the last few decades. Carbs are cheap and easily processed into any type of texture. The answer is to eat real food that allowed our species to develop a large brain... Not processed mush that makes us survive, but not thrive.

 

[Member496333]

Because we are the only species that use a slide rule and spreadsheets to create food-like substances, hyperpalatable yet void of nutrients. It started with the invention of agriculture, but has intensified manyfold in the last 100 years, and logarithmically in the last few decades. Carbs are cheap and easily processed into any type of texture. The answer is to eat real food that allowed our species to develop a large brain... Not processed mush that makes us survive, but not thrive.

Exactly

 

[Mr_Pot]

Never mind animals, I don't think there can be any humans using a slide rule.

 

[pixie1]

Apologies, I'm not sure how that part-comment appeared in the post - it wasn't supposed to be posted and wasn't addressed to you.

To briefly answer your question, though, there is no suggestion that calories can be inhaled. However, the proportion of calories that actually make it from the plate into the bloodstream varies between people. For example, some people are fairly good at digesting sweetcorn, whereas in others it passes straight through. Two people can eat the same meal but differences in gut microbiome are thought to alter the amount of energy that each can obtain from that meal.

Apologies again for the confusion - what I am really interested in is the links to the studies which show that people following LCHF can lose weight despite eating more calories. Thanks.

People's own experiences is not applicable if you want to be shown studies. Why do you need to be asked. Read about Dr Unwin

 

[ATZ]

This is what I get. Two people join a particular thread, both in the 'industry'. A thread on a Diabetes website and they concentrate all their efforts on weight, ignore question of TOFIism and sedentary lifestyle with weight loss and studiously ignore the whole concept of metabolic syndrome, insult members' inteligence by saying;
You didn't do it right
You couldn't possibly understand
You are misremembering or telling lies
You're not putting in the work
Have you seen my credentials?!
Accuse members of slavish zealotry or Guru worship

and then leave.

Or maybe there's only two of us and responding to hundreds of naysayers, whilst working, takes time?

 

[ATZ]

Completely agree. I've no idea if either of the two new members were genuine or trolls, we'll see if they hang around and build a track record or not. But supposing they're genuine? While they weren't particularly receptive to alternative views, those views were given fairly, ahem, robustly... To the uninitiated, that gives a false perception of our community here. I know there was integrity in every reply, but might we have driven away two new members?

Because to people who understand biochemistry and work in the industry some of those "alternative views" are demonstrably nonsense. Cutting carbs just leads to a reduction in calorie intake, it really is that simple.

 

[ATZ]

Not really because LCHF doesn't usually involve calorie restriction.. it utilises hormonal responses to food.
That's kind of what the disagreement was about.

Yes it does, you are restricting calories by omitting a macronutrient, some people find LCHF diet's great for managing hunger, so you eat less.

Find me one metabolic ward study that shows you can lose weight eating MORE calories than your body needs using a LCHF diet. I'll wait.

 

[ATZ]

I’m certain that I consume way more calories now than I ever did. The difference is that my body uses them all instead of storing them by packing my liver and nearby organs full of fat.

"I'm certain"

Code for I've no idea as I've never accurately measured my intake. And you want to pack your organs full of fat?

 

[Guzzler]

Or maybe there's only two of us and responding to hundreds of naysayers, whilst working, takes time?

I will wait.

 

[zand]

Because to people who understand biochemistry and work in the industry some of those "alternative views" are demonstrably nonsense. Cutting carbs just leads to a reduction in calorie intake, it really is that simple.

The trouble is that my body doesn't behave the way it is supposed to. No amount of telling it to lose weight your way works....

 

[ATZ]

I understand the disagreement. And I’m weighing in on the side that thinks LCHF works *because* of calorie restriction. When is there not a hormonal response to food?

Exactly.

LCHF dieters talk about insulin being the key.

Thinking about food promotes an insulin response

Eating protein promotes an insulin response.

Fat doesn't, but this is irrelevant as acylation stimulating protein will store it in the absence of insulin (not that insulin levels are every truly zero when eating as I described above.

If fat loss or gain was all about hormones and not energy balance then how are there populations living in absolutely rude health eating predominately carbohydrate based diets?

The Tsimane eat 71% of their energy as carbohydrates yet have healthiest hearts in the world.

The Okinawans live on rice and potatoes yet are a blue zone population - an area with a low levels of disease and high numbers of centenarians.

The Kitavians live on sweet potatoes

Or this man who lost 117lb eating only potatoes?

If it were all about hormones, why aren't the above sick? How did the last example lose such a large amount of weight eating potatoes?

 

[ATZ]

I’d like to know why humans are the only creatures in the entire animal kingdom that [apparently] need a slide rule and a spreadsheet in order to not gain (or lose) weight

Using this analogy.

You have an overweight dog. Do you restrict it's carbohydrate intake or, do you just reduce it's portion size and increase it's activity levels?

 

[pixie1]

This (maybe) can occur after long-term severe calorie restriction, which is why that is not recommended when dieting. Although, there isn’t universal agreement that it occurs at all (look up the myth of starvation theory). And, although a terrible example to have to use, anorexia would not exist if metabolic slow down was a common adaptation. However, if it does, it would be true with ANY long term weight loss diet, including LCHF and keto.

The body eats its self away, which anorexia does, people combine it with exercise, such as pacing to continue. It's a mental health problem. Cannot be compared.

If people are dieting through restrictive calories to the required weight, when increasing normal or what people considered normal eating, the body maintains the fat, this is why people regain weight, food has become plentiful, the stored fat is there ready in case of reduction of food.

 

[jjraak]

so @ATZ

i may have missed it, and i am aware your are a busy person
but too busy to say what type diabetes you suffer from..?

i'll wait.

 

[zand]

Yes it does, you are restricting calories by omitting a macronutrient, some people find LCHF diet's great for managing hunger, so you eat less.

Find me one metabolic ward study that shows you can lose weight eating MORE calories than your body needs using a LCHF diet. I'll wait.

Oh please tell me how I lost weight eating 1000 cals a day more then. I have asked you to read my fat fast thread 3 times now. That's my own personal study. You are extremely arrogant to think you know what works for my body better than I do. I have lived in my body for 61 years and know the effects of too much adrenalin at a very young age, a bad whiplash injury damaging my thyroid, years of insulin resistance and ME, years of cutting calories more and more until i got fat and ill. I followed your methods for very many years until I became morbidly obese. The light bulb moment for me was when my son and I had flu in 2007. We ate nothing at all for 5 days and very little for the next 6 days. I was seriously overweight and my son was a healthy weight. He lost 11 and a half pounds I lost just half a pound. That proved to me that I could no longer go on reducing cals to try to lose weight so I stopped dieting and tried to stay healthy. When I stopped counting calories I began to lose weight.